Live data from Hacker News

Public trust demands open-source voting systems

voting.works

281–290 of 292 posts

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#281
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you I am as white as they come, my family being a mix of Quebecois and Irish I'm "wears sunscreen in the winter" pale. I'm at a loss for why you would assume something about my racial background from my view that voting should be made easy and convenient in a democracy. I'll go even further, in addition to being able to vote digitally you should automatically be registered to vote when you establish resi…

English is not my native language, so maybe I'm losing some context. How can that comment not be racist? I'm being genuine. Did something get over my head?

I don't know either. But it was the first time I'd ever seen this phrasing and searching the internet for it didn't turn up much. So I came up with what I thought the best-faith interpretation of it could be—that due to my (perceived) racial background I was deploying motivated reasoning to advocate for an action that appears neutral but was chosen because it would favor people who share my same political interests.

But I'm not sure that logic is sound even if it was my motivation. Old folks and rural folks would probably benefit most from voting access that wasn't tied to a physical location. So I don't know. I want to expand voting access because our turnout is so low, not because "the right people" aren't voting or whatever nonsense.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto identities are anonymous. I don't see the issue?

They are until you need to verify them and ensure nobody owns multiple identities. The following must be true: - We should know whether you may vote (you are a citizen, over the legal voting age, and haven't been taken away that right because of a crime, etc.) - We should know whether you did or didn't cast a vote (to prevent you from voting twice) - We should NOT know who you voted for - You should be able to know t…

> We should NOT know who you voted for

> You should be able to know the votes are counted towards the party intended

These requirements are contradictory. If you can verify that your vote was counted toward one outcome or another, your vote can be coerced as that verification can be demonstrated to a third party.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto doesn't limit participation, unlike voting. At some point, one needs determine whether voting transaction 123 by votecoin address 3456 was made by a valid voter and that the voter has only voted once. So how do you do that? If a central authority does it by say, issuing votecoin addresses to voters or asks voters for their self-generated addresses, then your ballot is no longer secret since they can see exactl…

I think you're restricting your thinking to Bitcoin. The question is, can cryptography methods solve the problem, not can Bitcoin solve it. I'm not a super expert, but from the little I know, I think it's possible to issue a one time use key that lets you sign a private/public key pair. So when that public key enter the network with 1 vote and cast it on the distributed ledger, the network can validate the key is sig…

> I think it's possible to issue a one time use key that lets you sign a private/public key pair

Keys are just numbers, there's nothing inherent to them that prevents their reuse. These one-time-use schemes rely on out-of-band protocols to honor that they should not be reused, for example by trusting in a central authority to check and reject such keys, which defeats the purpose of using the cryptographic scheme in the first place.

> You know that the authority allowed the key to exist, but not who the key ties back too.

That's not the point of ballot secrecy. Under this scheme, I can be coerced into revealing my vote, because you can't create a control to prevent me from storing the signing key or signed keypair; either of which would suffice for a third party to find the public key on the chain which corresponds to my signing key. If you make these actions entirely remote, so I have no access to key material, then you are trusting the remote authority to issue me a secure keypair that can't be reused.

That said, there's no good reason to issue a keypair or use PKI for this, as there is no encryption happening and there's only one subject (the voter). A cryptographically-signed ID in this case can only be useful to tie votes to voters, which we have established violates the secret-ballot constraint.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#284
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pharaos had to run a footrace to prove they were still fit to rule, meanwhile we sacrifice the security of our voting system so that the most feeble and feeble-minded among us can vote. In some countries even the most disinterested and uninformed in politics are legally compelled to vote. Then we complain how foolishly the public votes, and how easily they are swayed. What a farce.

Hardly: History shows the repeated failure of the alternative, where only the "qualified" may vote. Terrible people just corrupt the qualification-mechanism instead. That evil tactic tends to be more-effective and longer-lasting than trying to appeal to the lazy-stupid vote.

> only the "qualified" may vote

You think this is a fair characterization of what I wrote? That it not being worth sacrificing the security of a voting system to get the most disinterested and incapable to vote, is equivalent to some unstated "qualification" test?

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#285
post #13

No. Public trust demands no software or programmable hardware in the election process. • Why Electronic Voting is a BAD Idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI > • Why Electronic Voting Is Still A Bad Idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs >

https://xkcd.com/2030/

Here in Germany, the Pirate Party has discussed the topic at length, since they (1) love voting innovations, and (2) have generally good knowledge on CS stuff, and so far I think no real solution is known for anonymous, confidential, secure digital voting with verifiable results, which is easy to reach with paper ballots and public observers of the counting.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#286
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago I attended an international conference on electronic voting. There were various papers on the form of elections (not on specific products.) The huge takeaway for me was not the technology (or lack thereof). Ultimately all existing (and proposed) systems have flaws. The key was public trust in the result. The first step to sidestepping democracy is to attack the legitimacy of elections. One can attack the…

World went down on a completely different path. New wave authoritarians want to pretend that there is democracy, and they want to keep up the trust, even when elections are not free or fair at all.

Also: Eroding the checks and balances and state monopoly and legitimation on use of violence.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're restricting your thinking to Bitcoin. The question is, can cryptography methods solve the problem, not can Bitcoin solve it. I'm not a super expert, but from the little I know, I think it's possible to issue a one time use key that lets you sign a private/public key pair. So when that public key enter the network with 1 vote and cast it on the distributed ledger, the network can validate the key is sig…

> I think it's possible to issue a one time use key that lets you sign a private/public key pair Keys are just numbers, there's nothing inherent to them that prevents their reuse. These one-time-use schemes rely on out-of-band protocols to honor that they should not be reused, for example by trusting in a central authority to check and reject such keys, which defeats the purpose of using the cryptographic scheme in t…

With zero-knowledge proofs and a trusted decentralized ledger, you can prevent double-counting and make the vote untraceable back to the voter. You can also guarantee that the voter was authorized to vote as per the authority, but the authority cannot know which specific vote was theirs.

As for coercion, there are really two types: coercing someone into voting a certain way, and coercing them afterward to reveal how they voted.

I don’t think the second one is much of a problem, because you can just delete your keys after using them if you don’t want to be coerced. It might suck if the coercer doesn’t believe you and you really did delete them, but at that point thugs beating you up is kind of its own separate problem. Similar to if they asked you to take a photo or video at the poll booth and if you didn't they might beat you up.

If the coercion is about making you vote a particular way, some schemes let you vote multiple times and only count the last one, so you can just vote again after the coercer leaves.

And even then, I believe some schemes actually make it impossible to show proof of your vote.

Here's two papers that are promising in all those areas for example:

- https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/zkVoting-%3A-Zero-know...

- https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/SmartphoneDemocracy%3A...

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#288
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> abolish mail-in ballots how then should voters who are not physically present in their voting district cast their votes?

If you moved to another district you should vote there. If you want people temporarily out of their district to vote, then in district X you could have a box for district Y, put paper ballots in, and send the sealed box to Y to be counted. The important thing is that the vote is cast in person by the right voter and put immediately into the box.

and for citizens who are living abroad and cannot appear in person in any district? (which includes but is not limited to active duty military?) how do they vote?

(hint: the answer is mail-in ballots)

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#289
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they will randomly sample some percent of precincts for a detailed hand-audit count. This places a lot of trust in that “random” selection.

That's an industry-standard quality control approach in almost every supply chain. Proven approach. Not sure why you're scare-quoting random. Do you have reason to believe it's not random?

> industry-standard quality control ... proven approach

proven for the private market(s) != proven (or even acceptable) for governments

do the risk analysis. what happens when an industry-standard quality control measure fails in whatever way for a private company? some hit to their reputation, stock price, market share, maybe they even fail. these are perfectly acceptable outcomes for a private organization. they are not acceptable outcomes for governments. governments demand (much) higher standards and more stringent processes. slowness is a feature, not a bug.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's possible to issue a one time use key that lets you sign a private/public key pair Keys are just numbers, there's nothing inherent to them that prevents their reuse. These one-time-use schemes rely on out-of-band protocols to honor that they should not be reused, for example by trusting in a central authority to check and reject such keys, which defeats the purpose of using the cryptographic scheme in t…

With zero-knowledge proofs and a trusted decentralized ledger, you can prevent double-counting and make the vote untraceable back to the voter. You can also guarantee that the voter was authorized to vote as per the authority, but the authority cannot know which specific vote was theirs. As for coercion, there are really two types: coercing someone into voting a certain way, and coercing them afterward to reveal how…

> As for coercion, there are really two types: coercing someone into voting a certain way, and coercing them afterward to reveal how they voted.

These amount to the same thing. The ability to reveal how one votes is what allows them to be coerced.

> It might suck if the coercer doesn’t believe you and you really did delete them, but at that point thugs beating you up is kind of its own separate problem.

The point of the secret ballot requirement is to make potential thugs aware that evidence of how someone voted does not exist. It is this problem that creates the need for the secret ballot requirement.

> If the coercion is about making you vote a particular way, some schemes let you vote multiple times and only count the last one, so you can just vote again after the coercer leaves.

You can do this in the poll booth as well; because the ballots cannot be distinguished, you can fill out a fake ballot and simply avoid depositing it. But being able to vote multiple times in an online election doesn't prevent coercion, because presumably the election has to have a result and voting can no longer occur after a certain time; so the coercer only needs to wait until after the election results are "locked" before requesting proof.

The first paper you link is a marked downgrade from existing voting systems which can achieve ballot secrecy without requiring fake ballots.

The second paper is more fleshed-out from a voting systems standpoint, but it makes a poignant qualification around registration security:

> Network-level anonymity remains vulnerable to timing correlation attacks. An adversary observing network patterns could potentially link registration and voting transactions from the same IP address. Mitigation strategies could include randomized transaction delays, Tor integration for network anonymity, or mixing services at the application layer. However, these additions would significantly complicate the user experience and mobile deployment.

And this is what makes electronic voting so hard to recommend even as a computer scientist. I think folks don't truly understand the breadth of side channels we create when we take a physical process (show ID, fill out ballot, drop in box) and move it to the Internet. The side channels are concerning because they can be observed and correlated without getting caught or impeding the process, unlike someone planting cameras or following you into the voting booth.

Post reply on HN