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3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

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Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#21

Post by tiddchristopher »

res0nat0r wrote: post #15
tiddchristopher wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all like that. The interesting thing seems to be the claim that Craigslist posts lack creativity, which Amazon reviews certainly do have. 3Taps is claiming the posts can't be protected by copyright, because you can't copyright facts. I think their case has merit.

Are 3Taps verifying by hand that every scraped post are only facts? I've seen some pretty creative CL posts. Also it's been mentioned that assemblages of facts can in fact be copyrighted. See the Farmers Almanac.

You're right about that, and I think that's going to make their claim a bit unsteady. But I see an argument they might make:

1. Classified ads are facts, with negligible creativity put into their composition. 2. Facts are not copyrightable. 3. Therefore, 3Taps can scrape the ads. 4. If any ad actually does have creativity / an applicable copyright, the copyright holder can contact 3taps with a complaint.

Basically a "safe harbor" take on the whole thing. What do you think?

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#22

Post by simplesimpl3 »

chii wrote: post #3
res0nat0r wrote: post #2

This is like scraping Amazons reviews since they are available via Google and claiming you can display that user submitted content how ever you like. I can't see 3Taps having much of any case here.

I don't see how 3Taps is any different a client than google is. Now, i dont know enough details, so i m not saying 3tap has a case. But, if they scrape data off craigslist, not via their api (to which they agreed to abide by terms and conditions), then they _do_ seem to have a case!

Is 3Taps different from Google simply because they show a map?

Maybe CL should have terms for their general website that say data can be scraped and cached but that it must appear in the cache either exactly as it does on CL, or with some things missing, but not with anything added (e.g. a map).

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#23

Post by [deleted] »

mattmanser wrote: post #17
res0nat0r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

I fundamentally disagree. The users know CL is sharing it with the world and that's what the users expect. As the article says, CL is happy for search engines to access these. Just obviously not search engines that they don't like. You don't get to pick and choose who accesses your website unless you put a password up. And if the content's not copyrightable...

[deleted]

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#24

Post by htmltablesrules »

mattmanser wrote: post #17
res0nat0r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

I fundamentally disagree. The users know CL is sharing it with the world and that's what the users expect. As the article says, CL is happy for search engines to access these. Just obviously not search engines that they don't like. You don't get to pick and choose who accesses your website unless you put a password up. And if the content's not copyrightable...

If I place an ad on craigslist, I would like to know if my ad will show up on...SanFranGayApts.net or something like that too. Where did I agree to have MY ad syndicated? Nowhere, that's where.

And why would ad copy not by copyrightable? I don't see a creative commons license at the bottom of craigslist ads.

I'm not sure where all this entitlement comes from that you think you have a right to another company's database simply because it's index is public.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#25

Post by Karunamon »

tiddchristopher wrote: post #6
res0nat0r wrote: post #2

This is like scraping Amazons reviews since they are available via Google and claiming you can display that user submitted content how ever you like. I can't see 3Taps having much of any case here.

It's not at all like that. The interesting thing seems to be the claim that Craigslist posts lack creativity, which Amazon reviews certainly do have. 3Taps is claiming the posts can't be protected by copyright, because you can't copyright facts. I think their case has merit.

My understanding was that, as the owner of a site, (even one that hosts mostly/completely content created by someone else), you get to dictate the terms on which any party accesses that site. It would be like if YouTube said that you may not access their site with anything but a web browser.

Strange that they went the copyright way, though. IANAL, but isn't accessing a service you've been explicitly forbidden to (via ToS or similar) a violation of the CFAA?

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#26

Post by mikeryan »

simplesimpl3 wrote: post #22
chii wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how 3Taps is any different a client than google is. Now, i dont know enough details, so i m not saying 3tap has a case. But, if they scrape data off craigslist, not via their api (to which they agreed to abide by terms and conditions), then they _do_ seem to have a case!

Is 3Taps different from Google simply because they show a map? Maybe CL should have terms for their general website that say data can be scraped and cached but that it must appear in the cache either exactly as it does on CL, or with some things missing, but not with anything added (e.g. a map).

3taps isn't a client application for Craigslist, they essentially turn CL's data into a feed and then sell it to folks who then create services on top of that data.

Padmapper is a client of 3taps who's been the client app that most of this is focused on.

BTW 3taps doesn't scrape CL, they actually pull CL's data from Google's Cache so they can't be accused of violating CL's TOS.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#27

Post by pyre »

natrius wrote: post #13
res0nat0r wrote: post #2

This is like scraping Amazons reviews since they are available via Google and claiming you can display that user submitted content how ever you like. I can't see 3Taps having much of any case here.

I don't know of any precedent that gives sites that accept user-generated content grounds to sue when their users' copyrights are violated. I would like to hear of one.

If you're scraping user-submitted content by accessing (e.g.) CraigsList, then I would think that CraigsList could try and claim that it was unauthorized access of their systems.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#28

Post by fbpcm »

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

I also received a C&D two weeks ago via email and FedEx for my craigslist interfacing iOS app. I also got an offer for a license but haven't heard anything since Thursday.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#29

Post by awolf »

fbpcm wrote: post #28
awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

I also received a C&D two weeks ago via email and FedEx for my craigslist interfacing iOS app. I also got an offer for a license but haven't heard anything since Thursday.

Hey, could you email me? hi@adamawolf.com

Us little guys need to stick together ;).

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#30

Post by bathat »

tiddchristopher wrote: post #21
res0nat0r wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are 3Taps verifying by hand that every scraped post are only facts? I've seen some pretty creative CL posts. Also it's been mentioned that assemblages of facts can in fact be copyrighted. See the Farmers Almanac.

You're right about that, and I think that's going to make their claim a bit unsteady. But I see an argument they might make: 1. Classified ads are facts, with negligible creativity put into their composition. 2. Facts are not copyrightable. 3. Therefore, 3Taps can scrape the ads. 4. If any ad actually does have creativity / an applicable copyright, the copyright holder can contact 3taps with a complaint. Basically a…

Feist v. Rural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural) seems to indicate the the arrangement of the facts is copyrightable, (if there is even a minimal degree of creativity) even though the facts themselves are not. The court held the alphabetic arrangement of names is not sufficient to warrant copyright protection, and it seems logical that mere temporal arrangement of classifieds would not merit protection either. However, it seems as though 3Taps would need to find a way to rearrange the facts presented within the advertizement, because that certainly is a creative process.

The seller has the freedom to write text a description and include pictures. Photographs have a long history of copyright protection, as does written work. Simply copying the specification sheet for a particular model of TV into the ad, for example, might not be copyrightable, but how does 3Taps sort those from the rest?

I just stole this from a random Craigslist ad:

"Black futon in good condition. The mattress is a lot thicker than most futons. It is pretty easy to assemble. You must be able to pick it up though because I do not have a truck. I am moving in a week so I need to get rid of it, asking for 100 or better offer. Please use the link above to email me. "

That the object is a futon, that said futon is black, thicker than average, easy to assemble and in good condition are all facts. The seller could have presented those facts in any number of ways, but he or she chose this way (proper spelling, for example, and mostly written in complete sentences) because he or she thought that would generate a better response. The only way I can see 3Taps on solid ground is if they can take the ad text, use it to generate a set of facts, and rewrite the ad from that (analogous to the way the PC BIOS was reverse-engineered, but done mechanically (I can't imagine it would scale well to have humans rewrite the ads))

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