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Public trust demands open-source voting systems

voting.works

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Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Posting those links without any insight from your side is just quoting dogma It would certainly be exhausting to share an opinion on every single resource you want to share with someone.

Considering where we are and what we're doing now, are you trying to be funny?

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Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what democracy is though. If only the right people are allowed to vote then you have a problem because their definition can change on a dime.

I'm not advocating that people not be allowed to vote, I'm just pushing back on the dogma of more voter participation = better, IE. just because you can vote doesn't mean you should if you dont understand what you're voting for and don't really care enough to learn. Seeing the constant barrage of campaign ads every couple years made me think about it- Why does campaign financing matter, how do they turn money into vo…

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Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can independently verify the election result, then it does not matter if any of the counts were made using proprietary software. If you can not independently verify election results, what good does published source code do? Elections are a process , not a result.

20 years ago I attended an international conference on electronic voting. There were various papers on the form of elections (not on specific products.) The huge takeaway for me was not the technology (or lack thereof). Ultimately all existing (and proposed) systems have flaws. The key was public trust in the result. The first step to sidestepping democracy is to attack the legitimacy of elections. One can attack the…

> But in truth being Open Source has no (real) benefit. Software is easy to tweak, Open or not.

But that's not the truth though. Open source software is not easy to tweak when it's deterministically compiled using reproducible builds and there are provisions for on-demand inspection of executables and hardware.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#244
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a most HN comment award, this comment must get it. Congrats you invented the most expensive pen / stamp!

[flagged]

Can you please edit out swipes from your HN comments, and generally stop posting aggressively? You haven't been doing it extremely (which is good) but you have been doing it repeatedly (which is bad).

Your comment here, for example, would be fine without the last bit ("you've missed the point entirely").

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#245
Some of the comments here seem to be associating electronic voting with these electronic voting systems. The systems described by this project all have paper ballots and audit trails, they're electronic assistants in running a paper ballot election.

I've only worked a couple elections in a single US county, so I don't claim to be an expert. But the projects described by the company align with each of the devices we use in elections today. Using their software would be the equivalent of moving from MS Office to LibreOffice for operating the government. It won't solve everything, could have bugs, but there are some significant long term advantages, like not depending on a company that could go out of business for security patches.

The first device voters encounter is people working the electronic poll books. We still have a paper backup available, but prefer the electronic versions. First, they can scan the barcode on the drivers license for a quick check-in (usually). When person shows up at the wrong location, we immediately know without spending a couple minutes looking through the paper list. We can even tell them where their voting location is rather than "you're not on the list, we don't know why". When someone needs to vote from their car, we can take a poll book with us and check them in curbside, no extra back and forth. And anyone can check-in at any poll book, rather than splitting the list up by last name. If there is ever a hack of the poll book, changing the list of voters, that could have also been done with the paper backup, and that's why there's a provisional voting process.

After that, over 99% of voters get a paper ballot. They mark their oval with a pen, and take it over to the scanner. This is where the security happens. There's a paper audit of the vote, and the vote is anonymous, your name is not on the ballot.

Less than 1% of the voters ask to use a ballot marking device. They are there for ADA requirements, allowing people that have difficulty marking a ballot by hand to vote. They have headphones to read the choices if needed for the blind. When finished, their choices are printed on their paper ballot, human readable and verifiable, and taken to the same scanner used by other voters. Most people don't even realize ballot marking devices exist, I didn't before I started working the election, and I've yet to see anyone request to use it.

The next step is where people get suspicious. The paper ballots are run through a scanner at the precinct, by the voter. These are monitored by an election worker to ensure the voter scans their ballot, but we stand so we can't see the ballot choices for voter privacy/secret ballots. These machines output a tally in multiple forms at the end of the election, including multiple paper copies and USB drives. The various copies get split up and separately delivered, each by a team of workers, for both redundancy and to ensure no one person is ever alone with the results.

A very important process happening throughout the day is counting the votes. The number of voters that register in the poll books is compared with the number of ballots given out (when ballots are unwrapped, they are counted, and what remains at the end of the day is counted again), and also the number that went through the scanner. Things get complicated (I assume reports are made after an extensive search is done) if we are ever off by one ballot in those counts.

The common fear that someone could stuff the ballot box, even by an insider, doesn't match my experience. In addition to the counts above, multiple workers, from multiple parties, are assigned to each precinct. We don't leave the ballots at any stage unattended at any time.

At the end of the day, the tallied ballots are sealed in a box. All equipment is locked back up. And lots of items (tallies, USB disks, sealed ballot boxes, provisional ballots, etc) are returned by a team of people that night to the county government building. From there, initial counts are released and then the election needs to get certified. That's where my personal experience ends.

The certification process includes deciding which provisional ballots to accept, and then counting them. But it also includes audits of the equipment. And those audits are supposed to take some boxes of ballots from select precincts and run them through a different a scanner to verify the tally is the same. The precinct scanners are also audited before we receive them, which is visible because a permanent count is tracked on the machine that's never zero for us, even when it's a new machine that's never been used in a previous year's election. In addition to all those electronic counts on different equipment, some percentage of ballots is likely hand counted. This certification process all happens over the course of days, if not weeks, but the initial count is usually out in a few hours when a first team of workers brings back one of the two USB disks (along with other items).

There are ways to hack an election, but these electronic machines are at the bottom of my list. Someone would have to alter the counts from the scanners without adding or removing votes, in a way that doesn't get caught in an electronic or hand audit in the future on independent equipment, and doesn't get detected in an audit of the machine before it is placed in service. And the whole process is constantly watched by workers from more than one party affiliation.

Instead, if you wanted to hack the election, you'd first become a billionaire, and buy all the media companies to ensure the population only sees one opinion. Then you'd gerrymander the election districts so most elections aren't really contested. And in locations where it might be close, you fill it with ads and social media misinformation so that voters don't know what to believe and they follow the loudest voices that repeated the most. Not only is that a lot more likely to work, but there's no chance of any consequences if you get caught since it's not illegal.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#246
post #24
post #13

No. Public trust demands no software or programmable hardware in the election process. • Why Electronic Voting is a BAD Idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI > • Why Electronic Voting Is Still A Bad Idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs >

(META: Anyone want to summarize the 20 minutes of video, and make it more relevant to this conversation than simply, "No." ?)

In addition, and I think the punch line, if you take measures to decentralize and audit every single part of the digital process, you have just made the most expensive pencil and it'll not perform that much better against manual voting to begin with.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#247
post #117
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Placed 56 and 41, respectively, on the Democracy Index.

US and France are marked as "Flawed democracy" (nr. 28 and 26 respectively). Enjoy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

I did certainly enjoy, thank you.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#248
post #29
post #13

No. Public trust demands no software or programmable hardware in the election process. • Why Electronic Voting is a BAD Idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI > • Why Electronic Voting Is Still A Bad Idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs >

I agree that paper ballots are better, but also agree that electronic voting, when used, should be open source.

One of the few things I was happy with Texas legislation this year was moving all to paper ballots. They still use the "bubble counter" machinery though and not human eyeballs. But it's not like it still relies on honest people and a government that is neutral when it comes to counting votes. That's starting to look like it is less and less possible with the current regime's banana republic chaos.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#249
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot to digest for a 7 years old, and you're still brushing over how you do a population survey, count the constituents and how to make that a trustworthy process. My point: reality is messy and simplicity isn't a guarantee of reliability. The things hat really work in our societies are pragmatic, not simple.

Sure. Probably you shouldn't dump it at once but let the 7 year old ask questions one at a time. I think you can still explain it one at a time. I am aware that readers of HN are not 7 year olds. Now try explaining any kind of encryption system that gives the same level of confidence to a high-scholer or even CS students in as many words as I used in that comment.

I'd say you can ELI5 most technical systems, it's a matter of finding the appropriate abstractions and spending enough time (for instance, just explaining the paper ballot system, we're already writing a full page or more)

It reminds me of a youtube channel explaining the Visa/Mastercard duopoly using monkeys and bananas. It doesn't perfectly fit, but works surprisingly well for such a subject.

Re: Public trust demands open-source voting systems

#250
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago I attended an international conference on electronic voting. There were various papers on the form of elections (not on specific products.) The huge takeaway for me was not the technology (or lack thereof). Ultimately all existing (and proposed) systems have flaws. The key was public trust in the result. The first step to sidestepping democracy is to attack the legitimacy of elections. One can attack the…

World went down on a completely different path. New wave authoritarians want to pretend that there is democracy, and they want to keep up the trust, even when elections are not free or fair at all.

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