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NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

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Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#551

Post by kristov »

random3 wrote: post #168
namlem wrote: post #166

This would be such a dumb move on the government's part. "Lose the new space race" is ridiculous PR-brain. We are not racing to the same goal! China is trying to land on the moon, we are trying to establish a permanent presence. There is no value to merely returning to the moon to say we did it, and Starship is the only vehicle that can plausibly deliver huge quantities of cargo to the lunar surface.

What’s the main motivation for the moon? Is it a better location than the international space station? What’s the reasoning there?

If there is water ice there, as suspected, it is the most realistic path to a self sustaining space economy. If you can earn money in space, there is a reason for people to work in space, and you can extend the economy into space.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#552

Post by dekhn »

fwip wrote: post #513
paganel wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. We’ve already beaten China to the moon by 56 years, 3 months, and some change. And counting. The Portuguese used to have the best sea-worthy ships throughout the 1400s. They were soon followed by the Spanish. It didn't matter, because by the 1600s the Dutch, and then the English, had transformed the world's big seas and oceans into their playground. In other words, if you don't use it you lose it, and right now…

Sailing vessels serve an actual purpose, though. The Dutch didn't build better boats for bragging rights.

National pride has long been tightly coupled to seafaring capabilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) "Richly decorated as a symbol of the king's ambitions for Sweden and himself, upon completion she was one of the most powerfully armed vessels in the worl"

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#553

Post by fsckboy »

whtrbt wrote: post #521
Waterluvian wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: 1. I think the America of Theseus mindset is a bit troubling. A lot of people like to identify with achievements that they played no role in. Based on zero expertise whatsoever, I have a sense that this is a bit self defeating. To be born a winner, to be taught you’re a winner… how can that be healthy? Today’s America scores zero points for its accomplishments of the past. But I think one way it can be a good thi…

_America of Theseus_ is a great shorthand for what you're describing. Did you just come up with it then?

America of Theseus is a great phrase, quite apt for describing "the American Experiment" and the numerous ways America reinvents itself. but I don't see how this usage of it provides any discernable meaning. Ship of Theseus is more a question than an answer, so saying "America of Theseus, therefore 1969 or any connection to it is irrelevant" doesn't follow.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#554

Post by dangus »

BurningFrog wrote: post #191
dangus wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The richest man in the world, a proven liar and baseless accuser of others, runs a social media platform he uses specifically to alter the political views of others for his financial benefit, doesn't deserve any level of benefit of the doubt or gracious fact-checking as he does not hold himself to that standard. No one with his level of wealth should exist as a basic concept. I submit the policy proposal that anyone…

The US federal government spends $20B per day. It could end world hunger without even noticing the expense if it really only cost $40B/year. But of course, that number is complete nonsense. Here is your intellectual mistake: Wealth isn't fixed. Musk didn't take his fortune from anyone else. He has been part of creating a huge amount of new wealth in his companies. Tesla didn't use to exist. Now it's worth $1500B. Tha…

I knew I’d draw a Musk cult member out of the weeds. The cult’s defense of their dear leader is an irresistible biological impulse.

It’s ironic that you’re accusing the government of not doing enough because the US government used to spend a lot of money helping people by fighting diseases and other poverty issues around the world (USAID) before Elon Musk himself illegally joined the federal government and cut that program.

So really Elon Musk has had a direct negative effect on world hunger and poverty including US government policy on the matter.

Maybe you think $40 billion to solve world hunger a year is unrealistic and maybe the US government isn’t doing enough, but Elon Musk is literally having a negative impact on the exact issue. At least the US government is/was doing a non-zero amount.

Finally, you claim Tesla has created new wealth. I would submit that Tesla has stolen wealth from the people in terms of its main business of transportation. Remember when Elon Musk fought against multiple public transit projects? Remember the lie that was hyperloop and the boring company which diverted public attention away from more viable and realistic public transit projects?

Every car company CEO is out to derail public transit projects that aim to reduce car dependency and make our world more equitable to traverse, and Elon Musk is an especially bad actor in that regard. He is an ideological proponent of a wealth-divided transportation system, where have-nots sit in traffic paying off car debt and haves skip traffic through his private tunnels.

Every vehicle we are forced to buy from mega corporations is a wealth siphon. It’s the biggest thing that the average person buys that depreciates into nothing rather than appreciating or holding value like a home.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#555

Post by cubefox »

imtringued wrote: post #259
foxyv wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starship has yet to demonstrate that capability. They would need to show rapid re-usability for it to be viable. Not to mention docking and orbital re-fueling. Falcon Heavy seems to have that capability though. I suspect that Starship will have similar cost to Falcon Heavy when they get done with it. Maybe marginally cheaper. The re-entry problem is really throwing a wrench into things.

One thing I don't understand about Musk and his Mars obsession is that he has had a rocket that can launch stuff to Mars for years now and he didn't even bother with the tiniest pilot project just for PR purposes. He is not sending rovers, satellites or living plants on a journey to Mars. Even if by some miracle Starship carries people to Mars, there won't be anything for them to do there. They'll be stuck in their S…

Starship (the upper stage) can launch from Mars and bring humans back to Earth. The problem is that they need a lot of propellant to do this, and they can't bring that much from Earth. Their current plan is to generate it on Mars, which requires complex infrastructure built by unmanned missions. A simpler approach could be developing a smaller ascent vehicle:

https://spacenews.com/how-carrying-enough-water-to-make-retu...

https://spacenews.com/crewed-mars-missions-will-require-a-ne...

But I'm sure that approach also has drawbacks.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#556

Post by dekhn »

aduty wrote: post #346
vlovich123 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

He only cared about sending rockets up. Where they came down was other people's problem.

I always laughed at that line from Lehrer, but Von Braun absolutely cared about where his rockets came down.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#557

Post by fluoridation »

Waterluvian wrote: post #546
fluoridation wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s just as absurd today as it was in the 60s. Nah. You can argue that the goal "land on the moon" is artificial, but it being artificial doesn't make it fake or abstract. If you're the first to achieve it then you're the first, and that's it. What does it prove if you're able to repeat it fifty years later? You didn't have to invent anything new (obviously), and you're certainly not learning anything new. Now, if…

It feels arbitrary to decide we can’t have a Space Race 2 ( Space Harder ) but we have Olympics every two years and Super Bowls and World Series and all that every year. I’ve got to assume I’m misunderstanding the objection because it feels ridiculous to overstir the oxygen over semantics. Do we just need to call it Space Race 2?

A space race isn't a sport, it's a technological and scientific challenge. You can't invent the same technology twice, unless the idea is completely forgotten.

Also unlike sports, space races are massively expensive and it's untenable to forever go from one to the next.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#558

Post by jojobas »

cladopa wrote: post #224

Oh yeah. Replace the stainless steel by carbon fibre, give it to your pals of Boing and instead of being ready in 2030 for 2.3 billion it will be ready in 2050 for 50 billion. Much better for making your friends rich.

So far the HLS project with SpaceX spent 3 billion and delivered nothing.

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#559

Post by tw04 »

harimau777 wrote: post #527
tw04 wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Based on SLS and the comments here, it seems extremely unlikely the US is still dominant. Literally every other nation is trying to catch up to Space-X and is nowhere close. An American company, based in American, primarily staffed by American engineers. I don't know by what measure you'd say that the US isn's still far, far ahead but I don't know of any other country currently re-using rockets dozens of times. What…

Personally, I think it matters whether its achieved by a private company versus by society. That's especially the case when the private company is so closely tied to someone who hates and alienates so much of society. I don't think that I could view a win for Musk as a win for anything that looks like my chunk of the US. There's also the fact that part of NASA's mission is to share their knowledge with the public.

>Personally, I think it matters whether its achieved by a private company versus by society.

How exactly are you making the distinction? Space-X wouldn't exist without governemnt funding. CATL sells launches to commercial entities as well as servicing the government.

Official ownership? Because China seems to think a lot of what Space-X is doing can only be accomplished by the commercial sector and is funding startups in China to do the same thing.

https://spacenews.com/chinas-landspace-secures-state-backed-...

Re: NASA chief suggests SpaceX may be booted from moon mission

#560

Post by nxor »

tw04 wrote: post #506
testing22321 wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’ve already beaten China to the moon by 56 years, 3 months, and some change. And counting Of course, but there a few things to consider. 1. This is a new race. The olympics happen every four years to see which nation is the current best. It seems it’s time to find out again. 2. The last time the US was dominant was 56 years ago. That’s three generations. Based on SLS and the comments here, it seems extremely unli…

>Based on SLS and the comments here, it seems extremely unlikely the US is still dominant. Literally every other nation is trying to catch up to Space-X and is nowhere close. An American company, based in American, primarily staffed by American engineers. I don't know by what measure you'd say that the US isn's still far, far ahead but I don't know of any other country currently re-using rockets dozens of times. What…

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