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Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

newscientist.com

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Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#61
post #48

Quaternion libraries have work to do now. Positive potential: Simplified “undo” mechanism: this result suggests that a given traversal (sequence of rotations) might be “reset” (i.e., returned to origin) using a simpler method than computing a full inverse sequence. That could simplify any functionality in libraries, like SpinStep[0], that deal with “returning to base orientation” or “undoing steps.” The libraries cou…

I must be missing something major here, but given a sequence of rotations combined into a quaternion orientation, can’t you just get the inverse rotation back to the original orientation by inverting the quaternion?

I think even conjugating it. The formula for rotation via quats is v->qvq^{-1} = qvq^*/|q|^2.

Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#62
post #48

Quaternion libraries have work to do now. Positive potential: Simplified “undo” mechanism: this result suggests that a given traversal (sequence of rotations) might be “reset” (i.e., returned to origin) using a simpler method than computing a full inverse sequence. That could simplify any functionality in libraries, like SpinStep[0], that deal with “returning to base orientation” or “undoing steps.” The libraries cou…

I must be missing something major here, but given a sequence of rotations combined into a quaternion orientation, can’t you just get the inverse rotation back to the original orientation by inverting the quaternion?

You can absolutely do that and there is nothing for general linear algebra libraries to do.

The actual paper is very clear about what it's for: https://fiteoweb.unige.ch/~eckmannj/ps_files/ETPRL.pdf

It says:

    Consider now a general time-dependent field B(t) of duration T. The pulse B(t) may be extremely convoluted ... Can one make the field B(t) return the system to its original state at the end of the pulse...?
This pulse is modelled as a long sequence of rotations. For maths purposes if you had such a sequence, you can obviously just multiply all the rotations together and find the inverse very easily. For physics purposes, you don't really have access to each individual rotation, all you can do is tune the pulse. Creating an "inverse pulse" is quite unwieldy, you might literally need to create new hardware. The paper asks "what if we just amplified the pulse? Can we change this alone and make it not impart any rotation?"

They are trying to take any pulse B(t) and zero out any rotation it imparts on some particle or whatever by

    uniformly tuning the field’s magnitude, B(t) → λB(t) or by uniformly stretching or compressing time, B(t) → B(λt)
And the answer is that you can do that, but you might have to perform the pulse twice.

Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#64

This article is written in a very annoying and misleading way. The discovery is not that rotation can be "reset". That is obvious and not surprising at all. Physical systems governed by classical mechanics are reversible just by perfectly inverting all forces, velocities, and rotations. The actual discovery is the shortcut to the original position without the need to perfectly inverse the full sequence of rotations.

  > Physical systems governed by classical mechanics are reversible just by perfectly inverting all forces, velocities, and rotations
This doesn't really make sense. To do that you'd have to end up bringing in quantum dynamics, and well... we know how that goes.

Heat is probably the best example, as even if you were able to track the movement of particles individually you'd have a very difficult time putting them back in order. The development of thermal stat-mech is one of the things that led to the quantum revolution and "new physics". But if you only have a "calculus" based understanding of physics you likely aren't going to be familiar with this. It's not much discussed (it is some) if you didn't start entering upper division physics classes or equivalent coursework. It really shows up when you get into the weeds, but understandably it isn't something stressed before then. Physics is hard enough...

Not all classical physics is time symmetric[0].

FWIW, I don't think the article is unclear. I mean they address your point in the first sentence of the second paragraph

  > Intuitively, it feels like the only way to undo a complicated sequence of rotations is by painstakingly doing the exact opposite motions one by one.
[0] There are examples on this page that do not require relativity or quantum mechanics, even though some do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-symmetry

[note]: The real paradigm shift in quantum mechanics was that there was information that we could not access. That's what Schrodinger's Cat is about. The cat doesn't sit inside a parallel universe, a quantum superposition. It is just that there is no way to know which of the states the cat is in without opening the box. It says that we cannot have infinite precision, therefore must use statistics. So Einstein's "god doesn't play dice" comment is about that there must be some way to pull back that curtain.

Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#66

This made me wonder if there are knots you can't untangle.

Every (mathematical) knot is one that can't be untangled, by definition.

Every knot with a cut can be trivially collapsed go a point by moving one of the endpoints to the other one through the path of the knot

Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#67

This article is written in a very annoying and misleading way. The discovery is not that rotation can be "reset". That is obvious and not surprising at all. Physical systems governed by classical mechanics are reversible just by perfectly inverting all forces, velocities, and rotations. The actual discovery is the shortcut to the original position without the need to perfectly inverse the full sequence of rotations.

> Physical systems governed by classical mechanics are reversible just by perfectly inverting all forces, velocities, and rotations This doesn't really make sense. To do that you'd have to end up bringing in quantum dynamics, and well... we know how that goes. Heat is probably the best example, as even if you were able to track the movement of particles individually you'd have a very difficult time putting them back…

Comment refers to classical mechanics, not all of classical physics and explicitly not quantum mechanics.

Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#68
post #23

https://archive.is/08ig5

From one author's home page (Jean-Pierre Eckmann - https://fiteoweb.unige.ch/~eckmannj/publications.html), the latest version of full paper:

Walks in Rotation Spaces Return Home when Doubled and Scaled (with Tsvi Tlusty) Physical Review Letters 135, 147201 (2025)

https://fiteoweb.unige.ch/~eckmannj/ps_files/ETPRL.pdf

Re: Mathematicians have found a hidden 'reset button' for undoing rotation

#69
post #65

Does anyone have a link to research itself? I don’t want to sign up to “new scientist” to see behind the sign up screen to see if they included a link or not

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45661035

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45661221

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