Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

beehive.govt.nz

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–39 of 39 posts

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#31

Post by sageikosa »

nodata wrote: post #25
veb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet NZ is supposed to have next to no corruption. OK... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

That's an index of visible corruption.

Quibble: perceived corruption isn't the same as visible corruption, things that are disguised are visible, but one may not perceive them as the things they are, rather as the things they disguise themselves to be.

Takes a little bit of epistemology to make sure that what you think you perceive is in fact what is really going on (how do I know what I know?). Corruption may be going on all around people, but they see it as "business as usual" or it's built into the "lawful" system, so isn't perceived as corrupt (though it is visible).

Some people expect a certain amount of "low-level" (harmless?) corruption, so reserve their identification of corruption to particular visible or impactful events.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#32

Post by sageikosa »

ihsw wrote: post #4

It seems 'Democracy' will be coming to NZ soon.

All that democracy provides for (in this case) is that no one is above reproach or accountability. It doesn't mean that officials are sanctified and immaculate and won't work in opposition to jurisprudential values (ie, won't be corrupt). If officials couldn't be taken to account (in an functional civil court), then you can wonder about the state of the nation.

The fact that New Zealand is looking into this is proof that democracy is working there.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#33

Post by davidw »

ihsw wrote: post #30
davidw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? New Zealand has a flourishing democracy. Or is this supposed to be some kind of hip/ironic comment suggesting... what, that the US is going to invade NZ? This is an example of why political articles foster commentary that is... less than stellar.

The US sphere of influence is very well maintained and the US Government will not tolerate deviation, it would be surprising to not see diplomatic pressure applied onto New Zealand. The US may not invade NZ in the sense you're thinking but NZ going to get the US Government's attention (which is rarely a good thing).

New Zealand has certainly 'deviated' in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand%27s_nuclear-free_zo...

Copyright stuff is small potatoes compared to the US Navy.

And yet... they didn't get invaded, did they?

Hand waving makes for poor, ill-informed debate.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#34

Post by sageikosa »

ihsw wrote: post #30
davidw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? New Zealand has a flourishing democracy. Or is this supposed to be some kind of hip/ironic comment suggesting... what, that the US is going to invade NZ? This is an example of why political articles foster commentary that is... less than stellar.

The US sphere of influence is very well maintained and the US Government will not tolerate deviation, it would be surprising to not see diplomatic pressure applied onto New Zealand. The US may not invade NZ in the sense you're thinking but NZ going to get the US Government's attention (which is rarely a good thing).

Given that New Zealand scoffed at allowing US nuclear powered vessels to harbor at their ports, it is unlikely that anything short of direct military intervention will sway the New Zealand attitude. Any politician who is seen appeasing the US would likely answer to the electorate in the next cycle.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#35

Post by lancewiggs »

mattdw wrote: post #13
dendory wrote: post #6

The sad thing isn't that we found out they used an illegal warrant, they had suspicious motives, or used illegal wiretapping, but that this comes out purely because this is such a public case. Just think if so much shady business goes on in a case they know will be high profile, how widespread and commonplace these practices must be all around. How many other cases we won't ever hear about because they aren't so scru…

See also MP John Banks' “I can only help you if your donations to me are anonymous” to Dotcom. This case is making public a whole lot of what looks like routine corruption.

John Banks (along with Winston Peters) are the two politicians in NZ who appear to abide by their own set of values, doing whatever it takes to get elected. Essentially everyone else, especially from the National, Labour and Green parties are on a higher plane. We may not enjoy everything they say and do, but in NZ politics smells a lot less from personal ambition than elsewhere, and anything as small as a favour to a mate is seen and exposed as corruption. Our tolerance for corruption is extraordinarily low, which is why this case is causing such issues.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#36

Post by lancewiggs »

dekz wrote: post #15
jordanthoms wrote: post #3

Makes me proud to be a kiwi. Aside from the initial raid, I think the systems have held up well despite lots of 'international pressure'

Unlawful actions make you proud to be a Kiwi? This whole ordeal reminds me of the BP oil spill, sure they'll help clean up, but lets not ignore what lead us to this situation in the first place.

Yes - it's similar to after the Rainbow Warrior bombing. The French were able to perpetrate a terrorist act, but they were comprehensively caught amidst a sense of nationwide outrage.

The copyright lobby and elements of the USG were able to apply to pressure to a few individuals, but after the back helicopters that sense of outrage and strong internal systems are kicking in hard.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#37

Post by stewartbutler »

stfu wrote: post #8

It is great to see that there are still "somewhere" in the world high level politicians who take these kind of things seriously. Judging by the coziness of the US administration with the Entertainment industry and its lacking willingness to clean up issues such as the Fast and Furious/AFT gunwalking scandal, I very much doubt that this would have happened in the US.

Check your facts, please. ATF has its own share of assholes, but from personal experience I'm inclined to attribute its failings to incompetence in upper ranks rather than malice.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-fu...

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#38

Post by lostlogin »

lancewiggs wrote: post #36
dekz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlawful actions make you proud to be a Kiwi? This whole ordeal reminds me of the BP oil spill, sure they'll help clean up, but lets not ignore what lead us to this situation in the first place.

Yes - it's similar to after the Rainbow Warrior bombing. The French were able to perpetrate a terrorist act, but they were comprehensively caught amidst a sense of nationwide outrage. The copyright lobby and elements of the USG were able to apply to pressure to a few individuals, but after the back helicopters that sense of outrage and strong internal systems are kicking in hard.

I like your comparison, but it doesn't quite work, as New Zealanders actually did the door kicking dirty work. But another parallel is sure to emerge - those who were/are responsible, get a slap over the wrist. I hope the footnotes to the Ranbow Warrior saga dont pan out - The Rainbow Warrior bombers who committed murder were basically treated as heroes and given medals once home - while France savaged New Zealand industry as some kind of punishment.

Re: New Zealand PM requests inquiry into illegal Megaupload wire tapping

#39

Post by lostlogin »

sageikosa wrote: post #34
ihsw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US sphere of influence is very well maintained and the US Government will not tolerate deviation, it would be surprising to not see diplomatic pressure applied onto New Zealand. The US may not invade NZ in the sense you're thinking but NZ going to get the US Government's attention (which is rarely a good thing).

Given that New Zealand scoffed at allowing US nuclear powered vessels to harbor at their ports, it is unlikely that anything short of direct military intervention will sway the New Zealand attitude. Any politician who is seen appeasing the US would likely answer to the electorate in the next cycle.

Sort of. Please excuse the excess of history if you are familiar with it. Prior to changing their leader, the National party (who now govern NZ) leader said to an American senator that our nuclear policy would be 'gone by lunchtime' if the National party got into power. www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10008905 It did and Brash was elected, but Brash has somewhat cooked his goose since then. The pressure from the US remains however, and the law remains unchanged. www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10836045

Edit: spelling

Post reply on HN