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Thank you Apple

commandcenter.blogspot.com

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Re: Thank you Apple

#21

Post by ConstantineXVI »

vvhn wrote: post #15
miles wrote: post #4

It had surprised me when Lion came out that the installation was done by an "app", not as a bootable image. This is an unnecessary complication for those of us that need to maintain machines. Earlier, when updating a different machine, I had learned how painful this could be when the installation app destroyed the boot sector and I needed to reinstall Snow Leopard from DVD, and then upgrade that to a version of the s…

Also, Lion did actually come on an installable USB drive (which is more expensive than the App store Installer app). Not Mountain Lion though. Creating bootable disks (USB or DVD) from the installer app is trivial. Also his other point about losing all installers is actually a point in favor of the app store distribution model. They're always there unlike a physical disk which can go bad on you. Time machine and Migr…

> You'd expect him to be able to be able to deal with this way better.

You can be able to do something, and still find convienence in paying someone else to handle it for you.

Re: Thank you Apple

#22

Post by eropple »

davvid wrote: post #9
Krylez wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting in that his industry veteran status gives this merit or interesting in that his employment makes him a shill?

Interesting in that when it comes to computers, he knows what he's doing.

Does he?

Not a knock on Rob Pike, obviously a very smart dude, but knowing computers at one point doesn't mean you've invested the time to keep up with them since. My dad was a network engineer in the 90's and early 00's and I learned a lot from him, but these days, when he needs to pick out a laptop or something, he asks me. I'm more connected to it than he is now, because he has other things on his plate.

Re: Thank you Apple

#23

Post by danso »

I recently had problems migrating to 10.8 so I just formatted my computer and reloaded the data parts. Still not fun having to reload apps but I'm at least glad that app reloading is simpler than what it used to be when I used Windows. I've tried to kee my computing as data-focused as possible...and hope that big commercial packages, like Photoshop, do their job in surviving OS upgrades

Re: Thank you Apple

#24

Post by gizmo686 »

msbarnett wrote: post #11
3am_hackernews wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point isn't that is impossible to be able to do a clean install of an OS and apps (Time Machine included) you have already paid (premium!) for but the fact that it is non-trivial and very much involved - all the things for which the Apple system stood against. Most of the newer Apple products are a black box which cannot be fixed unless even the technically competent users take extra efforts(^). And this…

> I think the point isn't that is impossible to be able to do a clean install of an OS and apps (Time Machine included) you have already paid (premium!) for but the fact that it is non-trivial and very much involved - all the things for which the Apple system stood against. I'm not sure I agree? Apple's always optimized for the average person's average case. "Those of us that need to maintain machines" aren't the ave…

Why can't you have both? In Ubuntu, you can update your OS version from the update manager, but you can also download the *.iso and do a clean install. After they tack on payment and drm to the system, what about this can Apple not emulate?

Re: Thank you Apple

#25

Post by srik »

eropple wrote: post #22
davvid wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting in that when it comes to computers, he knows what he's doing.

Does he? Not a knock on Rob Pike, obviously a very smart dude, but knowing computers at one point doesn't mean you've invested the time to keep up with them since. My dad was a network engineer in the 90's and early 00's and I learned a lot from him, but these days, when he needs to pick out a laptop or something, he asks me. I'm more connected to it than he is now, because he has other things on his plate.

He is definitely connected. He is part of the team behind the go programming language.

Re: Thank you Apple

#26

Post by ezy »

msbarnett wrote: post #11
3am_hackernews wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point isn't that is impossible to be able to do a clean install of an OS and apps (Time Machine included) you have already paid (premium!) for but the fact that it is non-trivial and very much involved - all the things for which the Apple system stood against. Most of the newer Apple products are a black box which cannot be fixed unless even the technically competent users take extra efforts(^). And this…

> I think the point isn't that is impossible to be able to do a clean install of an OS and apps (Time Machine included) you have already paid (premium!) for but the fact that it is non-trivial and very much involved - all the things for which the Apple system stood against. I'm not sure I agree? Apple's always optimized for the average person's average case. "Those of us that need to maintain machines" aren't the ave…

What?

I fail to see what is "non-average" about wanting to restore a machine from a Time Machine backup after a hard drive failure. Time machine is the only backup solution an average user will ever use, and is supposed to be a backup solution, not a placebo. As indicated in the article, it doesn't actually work for the the most (or second most) common case.

Rob Pike is most decidedly average in this case, he is most interested in working on his projects, not understanding the trivialities of maintaining the Apple Macintosh. Just like most people who have work to do that doesn't really revolve around shuffling boot disks around.

The "experts" (that, those who read macrumors regularly), will, of course, have not trusted time machine and will have a carbon copy cloner backup they can clone onto the new drive. They're ok. Meanwhile, the "average" folk who trust that an Apple provided backup solution... I dunno, backs things up... will be screwed.

Is windows worse? Maybe, but you know what -- as shitty as their incremental backup to a series of .zip files is -- at least it takes a complete image of the boot drive by default as part of the backup.

Re: Thank you Apple

#27

Post by 3am_hackernews »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #17
3am_hackernews wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point isn't that is impossible to be able to do a clean install of an OS and apps (Time Machine included) you have already paid (premium!) for but the fact that it is non-trivial and very much involved - all the things for which the Apple system stood against. Most of the newer Apple products are a black box which cannot be fixed unless even the technically competent users take extra efforts(^). And this…

”I think the point isn't that is impossible to be able to do a clean install of an OS and apps (Time Machine included) you have already paid (premium!) for” Huh? Mac users don't pay for OS X licenses, they only pay for upgrades. Time Machine is included in the OS, free of charge. OS X applications, and especially Apple's apps, are often cheaper than similar software on other platforms.

Let me clarify: You pay a premium for the entire ecosystem - hardware and software.

Also, there are a lot of Mac apps not made by apple of better quality and inexpensive.

Re: Thank you Apple

#28

Post by 3am_hackernews »

dchichkov wrote: post #16
miles wrote: post #4

It had surprised me when Lion came out that the installation was done by an "app", not as a bootable image. This is an unnecessary complication for those of us that need to maintain machines. Earlier, when updating a different machine, I had learned how painful this could be when the installation app destroyed the boot sector and I needed to reinstall Snow Leopard from DVD, and then upgrade that to a version of the s…

Yeah. I remember going through Snow L -> Lion. I wanted a clean system so had to make an ISO. Process reminded me a linux install from USB from 10 years back. And I lost iPhoto. Because suddenly my Macbook Air stopped being eligible for free iPhoto.

Haha, yes - I lost my iWork apps likewise.

Re: Thank you Apple

#29

Post by awakeasleep »

srik wrote: post #25
eropple wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does he? Not a knock on Rob Pike, obviously a very smart dude, but knowing computers at one point doesn't mean you've invested the time to keep up with them since. My dad was a network engineer in the 90's and early 00's and I learned a lot from him, but these days, when he needs to pick out a laptop or something, he asks me. I'm more connected to it than he is now, because he has other things on his plate.

He is definitely connected. He is part of the team behind the go programming language.

The world of computers is large enough that expertise in one area doesn't make you connected. An immunologist doesn't necessarily know about new surgical techniques.

If he had someone who knew about Apple, or even if he searched google for 'bootable lion usb' he could have had his problem fixed in 20 minutes (disk utility to 'restore' the main .dmg from the installer onto his other USB stick)

Re: Thank you Apple

#30

Post by cletus »

IMHO not having install media as the default option is a problem. It doesn't matter if all the media does is boot up a network stack and FTP it from somewhere and then run it but recovery scenarios aren't something you should have to twist yourself into a loop to solve.

One of the advantages of the App Store model is that software is (AFAIK) easily redownloaded and reinstalled, so much so that I know people who have re-bought Aperture (for $80) on the App Store just for the convenience (plus then it can go on multiple Macs).

Why Rob Pike wouldn't fork over $80 for Aperture and save himself the hassle is beyond me. You can say "it's the principle of the thing; I've already paid for it!" but really? What is your time worth?

iWork can be had on the App Store too. Photoshop obviously can't but Photoshop should be recoverable somehow (right?).

These days I have a box with the few disks I need (Win7, MS Office), I store my personal files on Dropbox and any media gets stored on a hard disk. If my Macbook Air got stolen or just died I'd be up and running within 2 hours of getting a new one.

The only real annoyance for me is changing what computer your iDevices sync to. THAT is a major PITA. If you are migrating machines it's not so bad (but harder than it should be). But otherwise you need to backup, wipe it and reinstall everything and even then you lose all your iOS folders and so forth.

I don't like the iMacs because they're not built for replacing hard disks (amongst other things). The Mac Mini however is. If this had happened to me I would've been shelling out money to avoid the hassle and the whole thing would've been over in a day or two.

The moral I get from this post isn't how Apple is making things harder than they need to be (which they clearly are): it's that you shouldn't get caught up on the small shit that doesn't matter.

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