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FSF announces Librephone project

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Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#151

Post by wafflemaker »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #4

Ultimately, I don't think the most important challenge is in binary firmware blobs, but the software which people depend upon to run their lives. What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS? Perhaps the FSF can't do much about that, but that…

Banks and national id apps already work on GrapheneOS. Sometimes you just need to msg devs and ask them to use a different OS attestation method - see link 1. This battle is won already.

1.: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#152

Post by randcraw »

monero-xmr wrote: post #22
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #4

Ultimately, I don't think the most important challenge is in binary firmware blobs, but the software which people depend upon to run their lives. What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS? Perhaps the FSF can't do much about that, but that…

Most importantly is to continue supporting web browser access and open web protocols. Then anyone with a web browser and device can use all the apps.

Exactly. A simple phone that runs a browser I can trust that's also capable of running web-based apps is all I need. I already avoid running apps on my iphone whenever possible.

The phone I really want is as uncomplicated and open as possible and beholden to no corporate economic interests or privacy invasions.

Now that I'm retired I'm looking for a project to immerse myself in. This sounds like just the ticket.

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#154

Post by autoexec »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #4

Ultimately, I don't think the most important challenge is in binary firmware blobs, but the software which people depend upon to run their lives. What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS? Perhaps the FSF can't do much about that, but that…

> What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS?

What does it matter if you can use any OS you want if your phone is filled with SoCs which are bugged and backdoored by the state and/or who knows who else? The reality is that we need both free hardware and free software. I can always tell my bank to fuck off and move my accounts to one that gives me freedom to use the mobile OS of my choosing, and if there isn't a single bank on earth willing to do that I can always simply refuse to use my cell phone for banking.

I'd much rather keep the phone I control and trust while limiting myself to only having the options of a desktop PC, a laptop, an ATM, a phone call, a drive thru, and walking into my bank's closest branch when interacting with my bank. Not being able to also stab my finger at a cell phone screen to check my balance isn't really that big of a deal.

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#155

Post by [deleted] »

jMyles wrote: post #132
criddell wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The time is right, but I still don’t think this project can accomplish much because people are generally happy with their phones. That said, the phone market is huge. They could sell enough devices to fund future development which might be good enough even if it doesn’t slow down Apple or Google. At least then there will be a device for those of us who are not happy with the state of things.

> The time is right, but I still don’t think this project can accomplish much because people are generally happy with their phones. Is there survey data available on this? Anecdotally, everybody I know hates their phones. In fact, I think if you asked, "what's the biggest pain point in your life right now?" I think most people will point to their phones.

[deleted]

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#156

Post by twothreeone »

wafflemaker wrote: post #151
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #4

Ultimately, I don't think the most important challenge is in binary firmware blobs, but the software which people depend upon to run their lives. What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS? Perhaps the FSF can't do much about that, but that…

Banks and national id apps already work on GrapheneOS. Sometimes you just need to msg devs and ask them to use a different OS attestation method - see link 1. This battle is won already. 1.: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

Sorry, but no. Device attestation is another mechanism to track and ultimately exercise control over the user. It fundamentally goes against the freedom of choice. You want me to authenticate with multiple factors? Cool.. let me tell you which method I'm already using on all my other accounts and then tell me how to register that with your service. You want to "measure" my device? Okay, I'll take my business elsewhere..

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#157

Post by geokon »

autoexec wrote: post #154
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #4

Ultimately, I don't think the most important challenge is in binary firmware blobs, but the software which people depend upon to run their lives. What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS? Perhaps the FSF can't do much about that, but that…

> What does it matter if you can run a completely free software stack on your phone, if your bank software (or your required government ID, as is looking depressingly likely) requires you to run a Big Tech approved phone OS? What does it matter if you can use any OS you want if your phone is filled with SoCs which are bugged and backdoored by the state and/or who knows who else? The reality is that we need both free…

Safe hardware is super difficult

The only project I know of that really actively addressing the end to end problem is Bunnie Huang's precursor.

Work seems to be going on low-key: https://github.com/betrusted-io/xous-core

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#158

Post by drnick1 »

jojobas wrote: post #8
bombcar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really NEED to be forced to attest if you can make your phone look like any damn PC using a browser?

Some banks require app confirmation for PC-initiated transactions, using play integrity requiring apps. Cause security, you know.

I think it's time to look for a new bank.

Re: FSF announces Librephone project

#160

Post by numpad0 »

Razengan wrote: post #77

The world could have been very different today if Nintendo or Sony had put phone functionality in the DS and Vita. Any reason that can't happen now in something like the Steam Deck?

Vita had a WWAN variant. What that means is, hardware wise it's trivial, business wise it's impossible. It's always has been that way. It took Apple under peak Jobs leadership couple years to sell the iPhone globally.
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