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In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

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Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#81
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems circular. It’s impossible to successfully restrain another more powerful than you, by definition, as an individual. And to do so as a group introduces the whole mess of politiking and intra-group dynamics that generates any significant power concentration in the first place.

No, billionaires should not be the countervailing power, that just turns into oligarchy. The innovation of America is that We the people, our laws and institutions are. The problem is ideological billionaires have been buying up all the propaganda outlets hobling "we the people"'s power.

How does this relate to my comment?

It seems like it’s responding to something else.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good comment. There is a trade-off between principle and loyalty, and "rule of law" puts the dial hard over to "principle". The mechanism behind its success is that it puts a society solidly into the "cooperate" Nash equilibrium. (Loyalty, by contrast, puts a society solidly into the "defect" equilibrium). I suspect that Christianity, taken broadly, also pushes the dial hard over to "principle". First, it "undermines…

It's weird, then, how it was Christians who rallied behind the wannabe king who made trampling on both norms and principles his whole brand.

It is indeed weird, and much ink has been spilled on the subject. Luckily I'm not answerable for them. I have no good answers and my speculation on the matter tends to be rather...dark.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#83

[flagged]

And all the people at the last protest were bought and paid by Soros? It's ridiculous to think those protests are not real. There are a lot of people furious about the current administration.

Yeah I'm am usually very politically inactive and even physically disabled... But I went to the last one and been planning on this for weeks. I don't like the traditional Dems or "libs" but at this point any enemy of the current treasonous admin is our friend...

Great to organize locally and network with ppl in my city/county/state so we can even organize to primary some of the shitty dem with younger blood that will deman a moral stand.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#84

[flagged]

You’re spot on. I haven’t heard a clear answer yet about why ‘King Red’ is bad and the prior ‘King Blue’ is any different.

Have you looked outside or read the news? Never in my lifetime (33) have we seen such government violence against the mass public... only thing I can see similarity was the fight for 14th amendment and civil rights act before I was born.

Also an evolution of 9/11 patriot act and ndaa expansions... People have been conspiracy theorizing for YEARS about ice expanding authority within 100 miles of the border and doing what they are doing now....even the ACLU ranted about it.... And now that it's all happening for real... The camps and everything.... We are just supposed to ignore it because it bothers your partisan sensibility???

YOU sir. Are a traitor and a coward, who confuses the path of ease and least resistance as the moral choice.that confuses peace with passive submission and slavery.

Give me liberty or give me death. I have full confidence the American people will resolve this. But it is very tragic how much blood and pain itwill cost at this point .

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#85
post #4

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

Good comment. There is a trade-off between principle and loyalty, and "rule of law" puts the dial hard over to "principle". The mechanism behind its success is that it puts a society solidly into the "cooperate" Nash equilibrium. (Loyalty, by contrast, puts a society solidly into the "defect" equilibrium). I suspect that Christianity, taken broadly, also pushes the dial hard over to "principle". First, it "undermines…

This is only first order accurate and the failure comes from higher order effects.

In your model you need the religious leaders to be aware of the ruse but still be benevolent actors. This is problematic because it makes selecting leaders from within the religion difficult (especially at lower ranks). By waiting to tell them the game many followers are likely to revolt as they've been told their entire lives and core beliefs are a lie. That risks collapsing the system. By pulling leaders from outside the faith you garner distrust from followers (maybe this could work if those members can be said to directly come from heaven rather, but that's difficult to pull off). By selecting from the followers and not revealing the ruse your system has no self realigning mechanism. In all instances you suffer from the effects of a game of telephone ("Chinese whispers"), but probably the most in the last case.

In all situations you are still vulnerable to the rise of fanatics. True believers of any philosophy can be dangerous, and the more power they possess (such as leadership) the more danger they possess. With competing religions you justify division between true believers. Even if the leaders of competing are not, the true believers will create that division and organize. A small population is all that is needed in order to upset the system.

I think you're right that there is utility to many aspects of religion (not just Christianity) but holy wars are still bloody wars. It's important to realize that these features can be met through other beliefs. Some of the greatest features are community, as organized religion forces common ground and people that have differing opinions in disjoint domains (e.g. shared religion, different politics) are forced to interact, which leads to lower tribalism (though not sub-tribes).

Maybe religion is a local optima, but it would be naïve to discount its flaws. By its nature it is dividing, even if at the same time it is unifying. Local and global structures need not be identical.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

It's the other way around: they're wealthy holders of land, like the rest of the dukes and such, who control large chunks of the land in the UK and own large businesses. The UK benefits from the royal family allowing the use of their land, including historic buildings, at a relatively low cost. Another example: the Duke of Westminster is worth $12B and owns a large chunk of London outright, including a ton of large,…

If I violently conquer and area kill everyone who objects will you also defend my "property rights" ? It's all my land after all. Lol

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#87

> “What would America’s Founding Fathers think if they were alive today?” > For Cross, it is pointless to speculate about the present-day views of men who could not have imagined cotton candy, let alone the machine that makes it. Some things, like “taxation without representation” seem to be timeless. You can call it irony or perhaps in some cases, a spade is still just a spade.

Pretty sure they could have imagined cotton candy, anyway. There's nothing special about modern people that makes them more capable of comprehending new technology, it's just a matter of exposure.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#88

> “What would America’s Founding Fathers think if they were alive today?” > For Cross, it is pointless to speculate about the present-day views of men who could not have imagined cotton candy, let alone the machine that makes it. Some things, like “taxation without representation” seem to be timeless. You can call it irony or perhaps in some cases, a spade is still just a spade.

  >> men who could not have imagined cotton candy
It's a funny example since it looks like cotton candy might have been around in their time [0]. Machines spun cotton candy came about much later but I'm not overly suspicious of the claims in [0] as meringue[1] certainly existed in their lifetimes and the process isn't dissimilar. I'm certain these men could understand "like meringue, but with sugar!" And "a machine that spins fast!" These would not be great leaps for people at this time. It seems to make them out to be idiots rather than not being prophetic (presumably the intended meaning)

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20150701005917/http://www.cotton...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meringue

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#89

[flagged]

You’re spot on. I haven’t heard a clear answer yet about why ‘King Red’ is bad and the prior ‘King Blue’ is any different.

It's not about King red or blue. It's about what the current president is doing right now that is completely unprecedented.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

The older I get the more I appreciate the value of a shared mythology. In some cases that is religion. Or a creed, as it was for a long time in America. But I think it is very valuable to have it for a healthy functioning society. It feels like we have lost it in America, which does not make me optimistic for the future. I wonder if the monarchy serves that role for the UK. Might be better to keep it.

The monarchy is demonstrably powerless and unwilling to fight the destruction of UK democracy. Right-wing populism has infiltrated all sides of the political landscape there, and with it all the self-destructing ideas we have come to love: defunding of all public services, increase in policing and control, destruction of worker protections, tax cuts for the rich, tax increase for the poor, etc.

I live in France, our common mythology, our Roman National as it is called here, is that we beheaded our king. Yet, the most authoritarian people you know will still claim the legacy of our revolution, of De Gaulle and Jeanne d'Arc. Even worse, this mythology is poised as under threat by a made-up out-group and used to seed reactionary fear and divisiveness amidst our nation.

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