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In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

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Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#31

Post by rectang »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #8
rectang wrote: post #2

It is tempting, given the success that kingly political approaches have seen of late, to adopt those strategies: to fight "your tyrant" with "my tyrant", and to fight your untruth with my untruth, eschewing skepticism. What if the Constitution, as interpreted by the current SCOTUS, really is a suicide pact? We can only hope that Paine's approach will win out instead.

That'd be a vaguely interesting point, if I—searching my heart—I could find any evidence of this going both way. Congress has never folded power to a president like this before. The Supreme Court has never faced such backlash from district courts ( https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/11/us/politics/judicial-cris... ). Scientists & researchers have never been up in arms about us health policy or what is being done. Colleg…

To cite one example: aggressive gerrymandering has required a response in the form of California Prop 50. I'm hoping that we can all find our way to competitive districts together, rather than permanently sorting into districts that are the province of one party or another, eliminating free elections in practice.

But thanks to SCOTUS interpreting any amount of political gerrymandering as permissible, we may have in fact fallen into an irreparable hole in the US Constitution.

Even if some of us are disinclined towards tyranny, we may be faced with a choice: accept that we are shunted towards it by forces beyond our control, or roll over and accept tyrannical rule by others. I continue to hope that it will not come to that and that we can fight our way out of this situation using Paine's methods.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#32

Post by rootusrootus »

vunderba wrote: post #11

> Paine labels kingship "the most prosperous invention the Devil ever set on foot for the promotion of idolatry" Given that this kind of deference to a perceived authority (which manifests in hero worship, tribalism, influencers, religion, celebrity veneration, sports figures, etc) seems to be built into the very genetic fabric of 99% of the general populace I despair at ever seeing it end. People simply can't wait t…

> People simply can't wait to anoint their own personal king

You really think there are only 1% of us that have no desire at all for any sort of king? I cannot think of a single person deserving of that role, cannot imagine what it would take for me to change my mind. I very much value our systems of government, and I do not ever want any one person to have too much control over them.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#33

Post by redwall_hp »

izzydata wrote: post #10
tuveson wrote: post #3

One funny fact about the “No Kings” protests held abroad is that they were called “No Tyants” so as to not be interpreted as anti-monarchist.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

It's the other way around: they're wealthy holders of land, like the rest of the dukes and such, who control large chunks of the land in the UK and own large businesses. The UK benefits from the royal family allowing the use of their land, including historic buildings, at a relatively low cost.

Another example: the Duke of Westminster is worth $12B and owns a large chunk of London outright, including a ton of large, notable buildings. (Also, I think, the Twinings tea company.)

There's the Crown Estate, which is controlled by the crown, but the family also owns the Duchy of Cornwall (45K acres) and the Duchy of Lancaster (45K acres), as well as numerous private holdings that are less visible. And this is predominantly highly developed city space.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#34

Post by [deleted] »

olooney wrote: post #4

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

[deleted]

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#35

Post by vanviegen »

ecocentrik wrote: post #17
olooney wrote: post #4

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

Nice slogan but right now in America, money is king and the law is bent to accommodate the wills of rich lawless men.

Which is probably the point GP and OP are trying to make.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#36

Post by Cpoll »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #14
izzydata wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

At this point the British royals are basically tourist attractions. They probably generate more revenue than they consume.

I intended to object, but apparently the royals cost the government ~500MM GBP/year. Which is a lot, but less than 5% of their tourism industry, so it seems possible.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#37

Post by mattgreenrocks »

It’s not just “kings,” its concentration of power in all spheres of life.

The fact that this point is largely lost on the audience of this site just shows how bad things have gotten.

People who want to amass power for its own sake need self-reinforcing systems that restrain them.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#38

Post by rootusrootus »

izzydata wrote: post #10
tuveson wrote: post #3

One funny fact about the “No Kings” protests held abroad is that they were called “No Tyants” so as to not be interpreted as anti-monarchist.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

The older I get the more I appreciate the value of a shared mythology. In some cases that is religion. Or a creed, as it was for a long time in America. But I think it is very valuable to have it for a healthy functioning society. It feels like we have lost it in America, which does not make me optimistic for the future.

I wonder if the monarchy serves that role for the UK. Might be better to keep it.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#39

Post by truCoat »

Thomas Paine's church, 19th psalm:

The spacious firmament on high,

With all the blue etherial sky,

And spangled heavens, a shining frame,

Their great original proclaim.

The unwearied sun, from day to day,

Does his Creator’s power display,

And publishes to every land

The work of an Almighty hand.

Soon as the evening shades prevail,

The moon takes up the wondrous tale,

And nightly to the list’ning earth

Repeats the story of her birth;

Whilst all the stars that round her burn,

And all the planets, in their turn,

Confirm the tidings as they roll,

And spread the truth from pole to pole.

What though in solemn silence all

Move round this dark terrestrial ball

What though no real voice, nor sound,

Amidst their radiant orbs be found,

In reason’s ear they all rejoice,

And utter forth a glorious voice,

Forever singing as they shine,

THE HAND THAT MADE US IS DIVINE.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#40

Post by yks »

simpaticoder wrote: post #28
olooney wrote: post #4

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

Good comment. There is a trade-off between principle and loyalty, and "rule of law" puts the dial hard over to "principle". The mechanism behind its success is that it puts a society solidly into the "cooperate" Nash equilibrium. (Loyalty, by contrast, puts a society solidly into the "defect" equilibrium). I suspect that Christianity, taken broadly, also pushes the dial hard over to "principle". First, it "undermines…

Blame “secular reaction” all you want, but with the New Apostolic Reformation the temporal loyalty becomes a pre-requisite to the loyalty to God
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