Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

theconversation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 109 posts

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#21

Post by Avicebron »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #8
rectang wrote: post #2

It is tempting, given the success that kingly political approaches have seen of late, to adopt those strategies: to fight "your tyrant" with "my tyrant", and to fight your untruth with my untruth, eschewing skepticism. What if the Constitution, as interpreted by the current SCOTUS, really is a suicide pact? We can only hope that Paine's approach will win out instead.

That'd be a vaguely interesting point, if I—searching my heart—I could find any evidence of this going both way. Congress has never folded power to a president like this before. The Supreme Court has never faced such backlash from district courts ( https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/11/us/politics/judicial-cris... ). Scientists & researchers have never been up in arms about us health policy or what is being done. Colleg…

The economic policies from the 70s until nowish were new as well

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#22

Post by Spivak »

tuveson wrote: post #3

One funny fact about the “No Kings” protests held abroad is that they were called “No Tyants” so as to not be interpreted as anti-monarchist.

I think their "branding" is misguided because I would feel literally on top of the world if the people who hated me accused me of being queen. Absolutely nothing in the world would be more effective and getting me to continue down that path. I would probably start wearing a crown and trade my office for a throne room.

The problem with demonizing people is that demons are badass and powerful.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#23

Post by black_13 »

ecocentrik wrote: post #17
olooney wrote: post #4

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

Nice slogan but right now in America, money is king and the law is bent to accommodate the wills of rich lawless men.

[dead]

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#24

Post by Lio »

izzydata wrote: post #10
tuveson wrote: post #3

One funny fact about the “No Kings” protests held abroad is that they were called “No Tyants” so as to not be interpreted as anti-monarchist.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

Are you British?

Personally, I like having a figurehead head of state that is subject to a directly elected Parliament.

The King may have cerimonital power but he can never exercise it. As was proved in the Glorious Revolution we can remove our head of state anytime we like.

I would much rather see the House of Lords reformed than the monarchy ended.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#25

Post by blibble »

izzydata wrote: post #10
tuveson wrote: post #3

One funny fact about the “No Kings” protests held abroad is that they were called “No Tyants” so as to not be interpreted as anti-monarchist.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

as a brit it's hard to look over the pond and see that as an improvement

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#26

Post by technothrasher »

vunderba wrote: post #11

> Paine labels kingship "the most prosperous invention the Devil ever set on foot for the promotion of idolatry" Given that this kind of deference to a perceived authority (which manifests in hero worship, tribalism, influencers, religion, celebrity veneration, sports figures, etc) seems to be built into the very genetic fabric of 99% of the general populace I despair at ever seeing it end. People simply can't wait t…

I wonder if Paine was aware of the irony in that quote by his indirect reference to the ultimate invented king.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#27

Post by exasperaited »

izzydata wrote: post #10
tuveson wrote: post #3

One funny fact about the “No Kings” protests held abroad is that they were called “No Tyants” so as to not be interpreted as anti-monarchist.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

> I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well.

Strongly suggest the USA leaves tinkering with other countries' political systems alone for at least a generation. No standing.

The British are actually quite conflicted about the monarchy.

It tends to be bound up in what a lot of people used to observe was the distinction between Royalism and Queenism (or Elizabethism specifically).

We don't much like the institution in the same way (only narrow approval overall), but we pretty much loved the Queen as close to unconditionally as we love anyone (she's like one or two rungs down from Judi Dench and the late Terry Wogan), and would not have wanted to see it go in her lifetime because it would just have been weird.

Now, not so much. Charles has yet to earn that kind of affection. Though surprisingly he is getting there, and Camilla's popularity (always a very serious problem for the monarchy) is genuinely surprising because she turns out to be a) really a friendly, kind person and b) genuinely liked by her step-family.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#28

Post by simpaticoder »

olooney wrote: post #4

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

Good comment. There is a trade-off between principle and loyalty, and "rule of law" puts the dial hard over to "principle". The mechanism behind its success is that it puts a society solidly into the "cooperate" Nash equilibrium. (Loyalty, by contrast, puts a society solidly into the "defect" equilibrium). I suspect that Christianity, taken broadly, also pushes the dial hard over to "principle". First, it "undermines" temporal loyalty by stressing loyalty to God. Second it installs a panopticon within the believers mind that guards access to eternal bliss. Third it provides a non-commercial venue for civic life (the church on Sunday) where "stink eye" becomes a meaningful enforcement mechanism of norms. I fear that the late 20th century focus entirely on the (real and very serious) error-modes of these mechanisms to the exclusion of understanding of their value. This throws the baby out with the bathwater. The secular reaction is to pass an ever-increasing and ever more comprehensive set of laws in a vain attempt to replace the loss of norms. When that finally fails (as it inevitably must) you decay into the "defect" Nash equilibrium, put the dial back over to loyalty over principle, abandon the fundamental innovation of the Enlightenment, and your civilization falls.

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#29

Post by exasperaited »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #14
izzydata wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't mind seeing the British monarchy get abolished as well. It's far outlived any purpose it may have had. Even without them actually participating in government they are basically just celebrities living off the social welfare of the people.

At this point the British royals are basically tourist attractions. They probably generate more revenue than they consume.

They definitely do, but a lot of this admittedly is to do with the ability they have to raise revenue on things they privately own; only a handful of Royals are on what is called the Civil List (direct payment from government for their jobs, which are not inconsiderable.)

Re: In 1776, Thomas Paine made the best case for fighting kings −and being skeptical

#30

Post by Der_Einzige »

Thomas Paine is one strand of an ideological opposition to authoritarianism that doesn't devolve into lunacy (unlike modern "libertarianism", communism, etc). He was a good man in a time of bad men. One of the few founding fathers who was genuinely against slavery and supported real egalitarianism to the point of being ostracized for it. He was an honest to god liberal with a capital L, and he, unlike Thomas Jefferson, should be the firebrand representation of the modern democratic party.

He believed in a universal basic income (Agrarian Justice), free trade, a land value tax. He was a georgist before Henry George. To this day, I look at Georgism as the only meaningful pro-market and good-for-buisness but unapologeticly left-wing movement we have.

Thomas Paine should be regarded as our best and most read founding fathers and liberal thinkers. He's often a footnote, or forgotten about. Just like Andrew Yang, Henry George, Smedly Butler, Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Sinclair Lewis, Upton Sinclair etc.

Instead our modern "anti-authoritarian" movement, or whatever passes for it, claims ideologically descent and active influence from the likes of charlatans and defenders of authoritarianism like Karl Marx, Hegel, Freud, Foucault, Kant, Nietzsche, etc.

Remember Thomas Paine.

Post reply on HN