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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
191–200 of 655 posts
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#192Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not want to be tormented. “It shouldn't be that way” is not an excuse to torture people through your moralizing indifference to the fact that it is that way.
But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?
"What if the next day his hope came back?"
What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day?
And people don't get any younger.
My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then.
I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?)
But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#193The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone. That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it. There is a cost reduction incentive, though,…
> That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. Where? This is a thing which always pops up in these debates because it is a deep-rooted fear, but are there countries where this is a thing?
Barbara Wagner [1]:
>Her last hope was a $4,000-a-month drug that her doctor prescribed for her, but the insurance company refused to pay.
>What the Oregon Health Plan did agree to cover, however, were drugs for a physician-assisted death. Those drugs would cost about $50.
Randy Stroup [2]:
> Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded to Stroup's request with a letter saying the state would not cover Stroup's pricey treatment, but would pay for the cost of physician-assisted suicide.
Stephanie Packer [3] (although in this case she inquired herself):
> Then her doctors suggested that switching to another chemotherapy drug might buy her time. Her medical insurance company refused to pay. She says she asked if the company covered the cost of drugs to put her to death. She was told the answer is yes — with a co-payment of $1.20.
T. Brian Callister, MD, FACP, FHM [4]:
>When I spoke with the insurance medical directors of the patients' insurance companies by telephone on separate occasions, both of the insurance medical directors told me that they would approve coverage for either hospice care or assisted suicide but would not approve the life saving treatment option.
> Neither the patients nor I had requested approval for assisted suicide, yet it was readily offered.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1
[2] https://www.foxnews.com/story/oregon-offers-terminal-patient...
[3] https://nypost.com/2016/10/24/terminally-ill-mom-denied-trea...
[4] https://www.cga.ct.gov/2018/phdata/tmy/2018HB-05417-R000320-...
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree and leave you there. If you ended back in camp you’d be welcomed. If you didn’t, that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and peaceful.
Or they'll treat you with a daily oil bath and feed you tender coconut water ... until few days later your kidney's blow out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal
I think people tend to underestimate the risks in allowing suicide —- here’s a blurb from the linked article:
However, social acceptance may lead to more egregious abuses: the issue gained a higher profile in early 2010, when an 80-year-old man escaped after discovering his intended fate and heard his family members discussing how they were going to "share" his lands, and took refuge in a relative's home.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re not understanding. They could just not take care of that person sure. But when the person dies, there will be nothing left to inherit because they will have spent it all on medical care.
So we've outlined a society where: healthcare providers, lawyers, etc. ("the system") stand to benefit from keeping a person alive and suffering because they can squeeze money out of them in their final years. Assisted suicide is being made available and "family pressure to commit suicide" is brought up as a concern? Sure, valid concern I guess, but it just seems pointless as there are already guardrails around these…
>healthcare providers, lawyers, etc. ("the system") stand to benefit from keeping a person alive and suffering because they can squeeze money out of them in their final years
Insurers and the government have the opposite incentive, but it's something to be concerned about.
>there are already guardrails around these processes
I don't think there are guardrails that can prevent what I'm talking about. Only the most egregious abuses would even be detectable.
As long as you don't literally tell your mom to kill herself I don't think you could make it illegal. As it stands in the US I don't think you could make it illegal for someone to tell someone they "wish they were dead" in this situation.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#196An interesting choice. It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong - I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier?
You get so tired
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#197For every Daniel Kahneman case, there's a case where the victim doesn't give consent, is coerced, or pressured from caregivers. It always rapidly expands from terminal illness to mental illness or non-terminal conditions. There's also weak oversight and misaligned profit motives. The examples in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, and Oregon are shocking.
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#198I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…
This is such a cruel perspective, implying that he'd be better off dead, for what, 3 years of inconvenience to his community, despite the previous 80 years being spent contributing positively to it? You even literally show that he isn't solely remembered for those last 3 years of his life. We owe people like that care and understanding, not murder framed as mercy. It's always so painful to see old people around who a…
He’d be dead either way, the question is if having those three years were a net improvement to his life
Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland
#199Not going to express an opinion, I'll just leave this except from the Hippocratic Oath [1], which reflects society's primary beliefs on this topic approximately up until the 19th century: > οὐ δώσω δὲ οὐδὲ φάρμακον οὐδενὶ αἰτηθεὶς θανάσιμον, οὐδὲ ὑφηγήσομαι συμβουλίην τοιήνδε In English: > Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.or…
That's likely to be a consequence of prevailing religious norms of the time.