Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland • Hacker News Board

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#171

Post by Noaidi » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

AQuantized wrote: post #92

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

My brother had schizophrenia. No one thought well of him. I guess he should have killed himself as well by the logic some are professing on here. Oh, he tried, but he ended up dying of heart disease.

> Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because of an illness.

Yes, this is the focus. Science has stalled when it comes to neurological disorders. But the response is love and understanding. I do not understand how someone would "sour" on a person because they have an illness. A very absurd conclusion indeed.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#172

Post by sarchertech » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:33 PM UTC

1dom wrote: post #134

sarchertech wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I feel the desire to stay alive long enough to be a liability for yourself and those around you is a decision motivated by ego and fear, rather than compassion or logic. Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic we should just go full Logan’s run and kill people as soon as they stop being productive. There nothing wrong with saying that you aren’t going to take extreme measures to preserve your life…

> Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic we should just go full Logan’s run and kill people as soon as they stop being productive. That's ridiculous. People can be unproductive, but not a liability. > But I don’t want this attitude of “you should kill yourself so you don’t burden your family” to become the norm either. I can see that, but you haven't explained why. Personally, I don't want to burde…

>That's ridiculous. People can be unproductive, but not a liability.

That would depend on your definition of liability I suppose. Many people would consider a parent who was no longer capable of productive output (work, helping out around the house, watching the kids) a liability. I suppose you may be using the term to mean "you'd rather not have them around anymore because their company is no longer offsetting the cost to you".

>There must be something more important to you that justifies burdening loved ones with a hard painful death of a loved one. Help me understand: what's that thing for you, if not ego/fear?

This isn't about me. As of right now I don't plan on taking any heroic measures to preserve my life past a certain point. The issue is I don't care why someone wants to stick around. I want them to feel free to do continue to do so.

>The alternative is he's unnaturally kept alive in a perpetual state of suffering for him and the people around him.

Depends on what you mean by being unnaturally kept alive. He could have opted out of medical treatment at any time. Once his capacity to make his own decisions was gone, his family could opt out of that treatment for him.

>That doesn't change anything. I agree with Kahnemans point that becoming a burden is too late. If I accept that, without being able to predict the future, it then becomes a game of risk. Kahnamen decided the risk of him becoming a burden was greater than the risk of him continuing to live what he would consider a productive (edit: "valuable" is probably a better word here) life.

Personally I think trying to predict the future and what the people around me would or wouldn't want is futile. And choosing when to die to prevent this is impossible. Some people will go downhill at 55, some at 110. If you really consider the burden of a few years of decline to be so awful on your family that you place a very high value on avoiding it, you'd need probably need to kill yourself much earlier than 90, probably 75 to really reduce the chance to a small enough level that you don't really need to worry about it very much.

The problems I see are that several.

1. People will feel pressured into suicide because they feel they are might be a burden to their family that their family doesn't want. Even if they aren't. You can't know what your family actually thinks. If they say "no dad I don't want you to kill yourself", are they being honest or not?

2. People will feel pressured into suicide because their family has made it clear that they are a burden on them. These people might want to keep living for whatever reason. Fear/ego whatever. I don't care why they want to. I don't want them to feel obligated to commit suicide.

3. The financial incentives for families to pressure otherwise healthy people into suicide.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#173

Post by Noaidi » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:35 PM UTC

cwillu wrote: post #149

firesteelrain wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still absurd despite what you say that we are implying that we should euthanize another human because they have become difficult to manage due to illness. Where do we draw the line?

You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not want to be tormented. “It shouldn't be that way” is not an excuse to torture people through your moralizing indifference to the fact that it is that way.

But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision?

It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#174

Post by pas » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:36 PM UTC

AQuantized wrote: post #92

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

the conclusion is true, though obviously the worst part is that this guy spent at least a year in varying states of despair, anger, and even worse psychological terrors.

you don't want dementia because it damages and hurts you and everything and everyone around you

(my grandpa physically attacked grandma multiple times in his last year)

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#175

Post by rkomorn » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:38 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #172

1dom wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic we should just go full Logan’s run and kill people as soon as they stop being productive. That's ridiculous. People can be unproductive, but not a liability. > But I don’t want this attitude of “you should kill yourself so you don’t burden your family” to become the norm either. I can see that, but you haven't explained why. Personally, I don't want to burde…

>That's ridiculous. People can be unproductive, but not a liability. That would depend on your definition of liability I suppose. Many people would consider a parent who was no longer capable of productive output (work, helping out around the house, watching the kids) a liability. I suppose you may be using the term to mean "you'd rather not have them around anymore because their company is no longer offsetting the c…

FWIW, I think the problems you list are 100% valid.

I still generally think people should be allowed to choose how their life ends.

I also think that, as a society, we should be trying to fix the problems you list so they become of least concern to the person dying (though I'm not optimistic we will).

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#176

Post by bityard » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:38 PM UTC

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #132

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

A society that sours on you due to an illness that’s totally out of your control seems a little inconsiderate to put it mildly.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that it would be society's call to make.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#177

Post by WA » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:38 PM UTC

pflenker wrote: post #24

WA wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but if you are in that state, you probably don’t give a shit and everybody else seems to be the problem. So how do you solve this? When dementia isn’t too far progressed, your life seems to be still worthwhile to live and once the dementia gets worse, it’s too late to realize this.

You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. That’s already possible for other situations, like when you are braindead and entirely dependent on machines to keep you alive, with no chance of recovery.

> You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head.

You can't express in advance that you want to have assisted suicide.

Your former self might express wishes, but what if your later self doesn't feel like this anymore? In a way, we can all get the same feeling when doing another round of "lose weight this year" new year's resolutions just to realize a couple weeks later that the former self wasn't that trustworthy to begin with (or was it the other way around, the future self can't be trusted?)

Point is: you can wish for whatever you want, but dementia is probably a tough case and it shifts your priorities, making everything before obsolete and I'm not sure that people beginning to suffer from dementia ever find the right point in time to end life early.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#178

Post by ZpJuUuNaQ5 » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:38 PM UTC

supportengineer wrote: post #120

ZpJuUuNaQ5 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. I completely agree that the disease is horrible, but your conclusion is bizarre. When you are in that condition, how anyone views you is the least of your worries.

Is your position that you don’t personally care how people remember you?

Yes, you are absolutely correct.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#179

Post by mcdonje » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #142

mcdonje wrote: post #51

The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone. That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it. There is a cost reduction incentive, though,…

I think that Hunter Thompson basically did this. Kinda "on-brand" for him, really. I had a friend that decided to stop treatment (dialysis), when he realized that he'd never get off it (he couldn't get a transplant). He was in his late 60s. It was both a sad, and joyous experience. He took about a month to pass (renal failure). He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide. During that month, a bunch of us would…

>He was Catholic, and wouldn't do assisted suicide.

I thought Jain the perspective shared in this comment is valuable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548178

Well, not just the comment, but also the wikipedia article linked to in the comment.

Obviously, Jainism isn't Catholicism, but this part of the wikipedia article got me thinking:

>It is not considered a suicide by Jain scholars because it is not an act of passion, nor does it employ poisons or weapons.

Catholics are probably never going to think suicide is ok, but I wonder if they could come around to a definition of suicide that is more narrow and which excludes death-with-dignity. If they did make that adjustment, I would personally agree with their stance.

There is plenty of precedent for this legislation through definitional scoping in history in general, though I'm not an expert on Catholicism. The book "Legal systems very different from ours" talks about it, and gives examples. It's really the only option for any sort of change when you're dealing with decrees from a supernatural entity or an unchangeable part of a constitution.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#180

Post by dotnet00 » Sat, Oct 11, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

hypeatei wrote: post #64

sarchertech wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the problem. If there’s a financial incentive people will find way to push it. That’s my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this. The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that your estate can’t go to anyone who potentially…

> There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this What financial incentives are there in killing someone?

Inheritance, and for the government/insurance companies, there's the incentive of the one-time cost of euthanization being lower than the cost of care for the poor, disabled and/or the terminally ill.