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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#101

Post by kranke155 »

troupo wrote: post #88
kranke155 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree and leave you there. If you ended back in camp you’d be welcomed. If you didn’t, that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and peaceful.

Death from hunger (esp. when you're frightened and don't understand what's happening) is neither comfortable nor comforting

Fascinating that you think someone with dementia would be suffering more from hunger then from their condition sapping away at them.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#102

Post by basisword »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #47
fjfaase wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have (grand)children, an important reason to wanting to stay alive is often not the fear of dying, but wanting to be there for them and fearing the grief they will endure if you are gone.

My grandparents stuck around too long, so I have the opposite fear of burdening my descendants with having to (if not legally, then via social pressure) spend too much time, money, and energy caring for me.

I think it would be valuable to get your parents opinion on whether the burden was worth it or not. Or, unfortunately, to see if your opinion changes if you have to bear the burden of your parents in the future. It's easy to assume the burden isn't worth it when we have a bit more distance (e.g. grandparents) but I think people are more open to it than we realise - even if it comes with immense amounts of stress. Saying that I think it varies person to person. Often in families you have people who are willing to carry the burden and others who aren't and that brings even more stress and disagreement to the situation.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#104

Post by ZpJuUuNaQ5 »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

>You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.

I completely agree that the disease is horrible, but your conclusion is bizarre. When you are in that condition, how anyone views you is the least of your worries.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#105

Post by sph »

kranke155 wrote: post #80
WA wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but if you are in that state, you probably don’t give a shit and everybody else seems to be the problem. So how do you solve this? When dementia isn’t too far progressed, your life seems to be still worthwhile to live and once the dementia gets worse, it’s too late to realize this.

I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree and leave you there. If you ended back in camp you’d be welcomed. If you didn’t, that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and peaceful.

I have this childhood memory of my neighbour's dog, that grew old and one day decided to go out in the woods and die peacefully. They found it a few days later.

I wish to remain so lucid when the time comes, that I can go sit under a tree and let myself go like that old dog. Perhaps I should leave a note.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#106

Post by antegamisou »

em500 wrote: post #62

I'm surprised and fascinated that this is apparently legal in Switzerland. The Netherlands, famous for allowing assisted suicide, has pretty strict criteria for this[1]. In particular, the physician must "be satisfied that the patient’s suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement", which from this article sounds far from the case here. [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-al...

Euthanasia in Switzerland ^ has been a notorious profitable practice for years, compared to the Netherlands where it's almost exclusively practiced on those with terminal debilitating disease.

^ Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means to it are made legal.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#107

Post by hyperman1 »

sarchertech wrote: post #44

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…

I see a lot of elder people age very suddenly. It's like the capacity to recuperate from a problem is gone. With some luck no such problems appear and you can become old without much troubles. But once a problem appears, it hits in full force.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#108

Post by jotaen »

basisword wrote: post #15
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

>> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. I don't think this is fair. I know several people who died with Alzheimer's and although their final years were very difficult for them nobody has a bad opinion of them. It's certainly a strain on the family but intimating that if you have dementia you better kill yourself or your legacy will be ruined is…

> intimating that if you have dementia you better kill yourself [...] is not ok.

Parent comment doesn’t say this, does it?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#109

Post by xtracto »

SeanAnderson wrote: post #5

Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow ( https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp... ). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling. You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.

I had read so many raves about that book, and heard the author got a Nobel prize for his ideas, so I started reading it.

I just could not digest it. I understood the words but I couldn't make whatever message he was trying to convey... it felt too "dense" for me. Maybe im just stupid, but I could not get past I think the first two chapters.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#110

Post by sarchertech »

hypeatei wrote: post #91
michaelt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many western countries make dying slowly with Alzheimer’s very expensive, by the standards of normal families. Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily. And most families don’t have a million bucks cash to spare. On the other hand, if they die after six months, instead of after 5 years? The family doesn’t lose the farm.

> Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily That would indicate there is a financial incentive in keeping them alive , no? The "incentive" from the family's perspective, if they're that cold-blooded, doesn't make sense because they could just... not take care of that person.

You’re not understanding. They could just not take care of that person sure. But when the person dies, there will be nothing left to inherit because they will have spent it all on medical care.
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