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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

data-star.dev

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#251

Post by nchmy »

albedoa wrote: post #216
nchmy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly! Here's a good start (React is the main focus, but it extends to many other frameworks) https://infrequently.org/2024/11/if-not-react-then-what/ (there's MUCH more at this site as well) https://www.zachleat.com/web/react-criticism/

The HN comments for that first one gave us the worst "advice" that this site has ever seen and might ever see [1]: > Nothing that is visible "below the fold" should ever run or load until the page is scrolled down by the site visitor. The commenter septupled down and eventually blamed trolls :D 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42285326

Sorry, I'm not understanding what relevance some HN comments have to do with the link I shared...?

Though, for the record, I agree with everything that person - and other sibling commenter - wrote. It is quite obvious the people were not reading and replying in good faith.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#252

Post by nchmy »

xdfgh1112 wrote: post #199
nchmy wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People pay for things all the time, why not (almost surely unnecessary) code? Why do you all feel entitled to free access to thousands of hours of very highly skilled devs' efforts (most of which they actually are giving away for free)? Moreover, it is quite common for there to be pro versions of libraries these days - tailwind, all sorts of component libraries, etc.. > Plenty of other open source projects make money…

I think the pro version and charging stuff is totally fine. It's the lack of transparency that bothers people. I shouldn't have to figure out their profit model from HN comments. If you want to be paid for your work, charge for the whole library or make the free/pro distinction very clear to people. Don't try to hook them in with a free offering while locking features behind a paywall that they discover later. Or if…

99% is already free. That seems pretty altruistic to me.

And they don't really care if it "pays off" - it's not meant to

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#253

Post by andersmurphy »

imiric wrote: post #93
jonathanstrange wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical about this business model because it can become worse than proprietary software dependency over time. You get lured in by thinking it's open source and free, and might end up paying as much as the developer wants for essential features a few years later.

Like I said, it's crucial for the developer to be fair about it. Running a sustainable business built on open source is entrepreneurship on hard mode. Some companies do a better job at this than others, and, unfortunately, open source has been abused as a marketing strategy on many occasions. No matter how you look at it, though, any business model that enables users to use open source software is a much better optio…

Yeah it's a weird one people complain about open source projects having extra features you can pay for. But, then they also complain when you make open source GPL.

I'm sure it would be the same group complaining if it was GPL too.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#254

Post by andersmurphy »

imiric wrote: post #122
nchmy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not even running a business on this - its literally registered as a 501c3 nonprofit. Its a labour of love that theyve shared with the world, and they actively tell people that the pro features are unnecessary for most projects. If you want those features or just want to support the project, the cost is quite fair, and just goes to things like traveling to do conference talks etc... They are not getting rich o…

That's admirable. They just gained another sponsor. :) I do think that they should be paid for this work, and be able to sustain themselves from it. So I wouldn't be against it being a business, or the project having a subscription model. The idea of open source being gratis, and products in general being "free", has done enough harm to the world.

100% so many projects have died because they didn't have a longterm plan to keep the lights on other than hoping for donations and or offering support that no one needed (the better the project the less likely you need support).

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#255

Post by hasanhaja »

contrast wrote: post #239
JSR_FDED wrote: post #223

Datastar is run by some principled (and opinionated) guys who are immensely generous with their time and supportive to newcomers. What’s getting lost in the whole kerfufflw over the Pro version is that this is NOT a monetization strategy. There is no intent to hook you - in fact they go out of their way to tell your you don’t need it. And the company is a registered non-profit. Based on their own extensive experience…

Copy-to-clipboard is a support heavy feature? Do you really think Datastar is of such ridiculously bad quality that even simple features require a lot of support to get working?

Use the Navigator API directly then? Why do _need_ a declarative version of it?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#256

Post by andersmurphy »

yxhuvud wrote: post #63
bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

Yeah, I have no idea why someone would want to consider this over turbo + stimulus

Because turbo stimulus doesn't let you build a multiplayer spreadsheet performantly and realtime in a few hundred lines of code.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#257

Post by andersmurphy »

sarchertech wrote: post #64
nchmy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. Why bring this up unless you're just trying to make them look bad in a dishonest way? It is clearly documented on the site in multiple places. Moreover, they actively dissuade people from even buying the pro license because they are quite emphatic that most people/sites do not need any of these features. If you do need them, then it's a small price to pay for the functionality, as well as to mak…

This is an example of the entitled subset of people who come out of the woodwork whenever an open source project has any kind of monetization or even just a non-standard license prohibiting billion dollar companies from selling their project as a service. I guarantee the fact that I referred to a project with an anti Amazon clause as open source will piss some of the off so much that they’ll comment here about it.

Same people who complain about GPL and other copy left licenses I imagine.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#258

Post by andersmurphy »

xdfgh1112 wrote: post #33
nchmy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. Why bring this up unless you're just trying to make them look bad in a dishonest way? It is clearly documented on the site in multiple places. Moreover, they actively dissuade people from even buying the pro license because they are quite emphatic that most people/sites do not need any of these features. If you do need them, then it's a small price to pay for the functionality, as well as to mak…

I appreciated it. If I'm going to consider a framework I want to know if some of it costs money. Especially like 299usd. Frankly your response seems very hostile and makes me wants to avoid them more.

How much do you pay big tech for your LLM subscriptions monthly? I'm really curious.

299$ lifetime which includes future features seems like a steal. I bought it and don't use it, but I'm excited to see what comes next.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#259

Post by withinboredom »

limagnolia wrote: post #222
withinboredom wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL. What US tax law?

See for eaxmple the Mozilla IRS dispute as an example. Mozilla resolved this by putting their money making endeavors into a for profit org, which is in turn owned by the nonprofit, but the for profit org pays tax on their income. https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/unrelated-business... See also

My point is that this administration isn’t really doing much enforcement.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#260

Post by andersmurphy »

dang wrote: post #202
mawadev wrote: post #32

This post and other posts about datastar on the hn frontpage seem unnatural to me. It's like a marketing effort to astroturf this, especially with newly created accounts interacting with this...

I think it was probably the copycat/followup effect rather than anything coordinated, but I haven't looked closely. Trying to decide whether to merge the threads and/or which of them should 'win'...

If the datastar team was capable of such a coordinated marketing effort I doubt they'd be in the business of running a non profit, or building a niche HTML streaming framework. Or having a one off purchase model for pro.

I mean unless you consider me linking my dumb demos everytime someone accuses hypermedia of not being suitable for realtime/collaborative apps. That I'm 100% guilty of.

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