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Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

blog.miguelgrinberg.com

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Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#531

Post by 9rx »

Someone wrote: post #527
9rx wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fields happily reuse symbols from other fields with slightly or even completely different meanings. Symbol reuse doesn't imply a break in backwards compatibility. As you suggest with "other fields", context allows determining how the symbols are used. It is quite common in all types of languages to reuse symbols for different purposes, relying on context to identify what purpose is in force. Backwards incompatibili…

> Mathematical notation from long ago doesn't much look like what we're familiar with today, but we can still make use of it. But few modern mathematicians can understand it. Given enough data, they can figure out what it means, but that’s similar to (in this somewhat weak analogy) running code in an emulator. What we can readily make use of are mathematical results from long ago.

> Given enough data, they can figure out what it means

Right, whereas something that isn't backwards compatible couldn't be figured out no matter how much data is given. Consider this line of Python:

   print(5 / 2)
There is no way you can know what the output should be. That is, unless we introduce synthetic context (i.e. a version number). Absent synthetic context we can reasonably assume that natural context is sufficient, and where natural context is sufficient, backwards compatibility is present.

> What we can readily make use of are mathematical results from long ago.

To some degree, but mostly we've translated the old notation into modern notation for the sake of familiarity. And certainly a lot of programming that gets done is exactly that: Rewriting the exact same functionality in something more familiar.

But like mathematics, while there may have been a lot of churn in the olden days when nothing existed before it and everyone was trying to figure out what works, programming notation has largely settled on what is familiar with some reasonable stability and no doubt will only continue to find even greater stability and it matures in kind.

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#532

Post by UltraSane »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #500
wiseowise wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Oh, as if "the Russians are comin' to brainwash us all" doesn't keep you up at night. Give it up. The Russians aren't coming for you. You're gunning for them.

Systematic manipulation isn't brainwashing. The Internet has made it possible.

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#533

Post by UltraSane »

mh- wrote: post #463
UltraSane wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just have to read Reddit and YouTube and Twitter comments to see all the evidence you need.

Curious that you didn't include HN in that list.

Because I rarely see obvious Russian troll comments on hacker news

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#534

Post by UltraSane »

Sanity_Check wrote: post #514
UltraSane wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has gotten VERY good at amplifying any cultural differences or controversies in order to break US politics (and many other countries). If you hadn't noticed it has been VERY effective.

>Cracker Barrel >break US politics It's a restaurant logo bro, not a pillar of civic discourse.

It all adds up to an erosion of trust and increased political polarization.

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#535

Post by MomsAVoxell »

UltraSane wrote: post #532
MomsAVoxell wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, as if "the Russians are comin' to brainwash us all" doesn't keep you up at night. Give it up. The Russians aren't coming for you. You're gunning for them.

Systematic manipulation isn't brainwashing. The Internet has made it possible.

Says you! I don’t even know if you’re a bot.

You’re probably a bot because you say things I don’t agree with!

Wait! Maybe I AM THE ‘bot?

What were we talking about again?

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#536

Post by MomsAVoxell »

UltraSane wrote: post #533
mh- wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious that you didn't include HN in that list.

Because I rarely see obvious Russian troll comments on hacker news

Yes, there are Russians on the Internet. No, they’re not all trolls. No, I’m not Russian. Yes, there are American trolls on the Internet. No, America doesn’t own the Internet.

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#537

Post by jonstewart »

tialaramex wrote: post #409
jonstewart wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do a bit of performance work and find most often that things are mixed: there’s enough CPU between syscalls that the hardware isn’t being full maximized, but there’s enough I/O the CPUs aren’t pegged either. It is rare that the profiler finds an obvious hotspot that yields an easy win; usually it shows that with heavy refactoring you can make 10% of your load several times faster, and then you’ll need to do the sam…

This "There are no hot spots, it's just a uniform glowing orange" situation is why Google picked C++ and then later Rust and to some extent why they picked Go too.

I am, indeed, a C++ developer. :-)

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#538

Post by Terretta »

wiseowise wrote: post #134
nadermx wrote: post #10

Tangential, but I practically owe my life to this guy. He wrote the flask mega tutorial in what I followed religiously to launch my first website. Then right before launch, in the most critical part of my entire application; piping a fragged file in flask. He answered my stackoverflow question, I put his fix live, and the site went viral. Here's the link for posterity's sake https://stackoverflow.com/a/34391304/41802…

> flask Off-topic, but I absolutely loathe new Flask logo. Old one[0] has this vintage, crafty feel. And the new one[1] looks like it was made by a starving high schooler experimenting with WordArt. [0] - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Flask_lo... [1] - https://flask.palletsprojects.com/en/stable/_images/flask-na...

For [1] they picked clip-art of a crown molding cross section.

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#539

Post by tyg13 »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #407
tyg13 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in the Hacker News in this comment? Mathematical notation evolved to its modern state over centuries. It's optimized heavily for its purpose. Version numbers? You're being facetious, right?

>evolved Yes, it evolved. It wasn't designed. >Version numbers? Without version numbers, it has to be backwards-compatible, making it difficult to remove cruft. What would programming be like if all the code you wrote needed to work as IBM mainframe assembly? Tau is a good case study. Everyone seems to agree tau is better than pi. How much adoption has it seen? Is this what "heavy optimization" looks like? It took hu…

Mathematical notation isn't at all backwards compatible, and it certainly isn't consistent. It doesn't have to be, because the execution environment is the abstract machine of your mind, not some rigidly defined ISA or programming language.

> Everyone seems to agree tau is better than pi. How much adoption has it seen?

> It took hundreds of years for Arabic numerals to replace Roman numerals in Europe.

What on earth does this have to do with version numbers for math? I appreciate this is Hacker News and we're all just pissing into the wind, but this is extra nonsensical to me.

The reason math is slow to change has nothing to do with backwards compatibility. We don't need to institute Math 2.0 to change mathematical notation. If you want to use tau right now, the only barrier is other people's understanding. I personally like to use it, and if I anticipate its use will be confusing to a reader, I just write `tau = 2pi` at the top of the paper. Still, others have their preference, so I'm forced to understand papers (i.e. the vast majority) which still use pi.

Which points to the real reason math is slow to change: people are slow to change. If things seem to be working one way, we all have to be convinced to do something different, and that takes time. It also requires there to actually be a better way.

> Is this what "heavy optimization" looks like?

I look forward to your heavily-optimized Math 2.0 which will replace existing mathematical notation and prove me utterly wrong.

Re: Python 3.14 is here. How fast is it?

#540

Post by throwaway314155 »

repsilat wrote: post #286
throwaway314155 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*for very specific benchmarks, not "on average"

For compute-heavy code "100x slower than C++" is a good rule of thumb in my experience in python 3.10.

Maybe when you are reinventing the wheel instead of using e.g. numpy, Jax, PyTorch. Python is an ecosystem some of which is tooling built in C/C++. There’s no reason to ignore those libraries just because C devs like to roll their own everything.
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