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Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

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Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#251

Post by hackingonempty »

Zambyte wrote: post #134
hackingonempty wrote: post #4

It is literally 20 times as many people killed every year as are killed in mass shootings but you can't get anyone to care at all about it. Blame the victim, did you see what they were wearing?

The reason it is hard to get people to care is the obvious intent difference. People don't tend to get behind the wheel with the conscious intent of killing people, even if they make poor decisions that lead to that. Drivers killing people is much more relatable to the average person, so it's hard to get the average person to have a rational conversation about it.

The situation is the same with drunk driving. Most people can relate to just wanting to get home after having a couple drinks. There was little enforcement of existing laws. Yet the USA was able to turn things around, the culture has changed, fatalities have been slowly dropping, and even police chiefs can no longer talk their way out of going to jail when caught.

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#252

Post by lucyjojo »

IAmBroom wrote: post #193
estimator7292 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the US has a culture of not giving a single shit about anyone but yourself. A frighteningly large fraction of drivers will do anything they can get away with. Here in the land of the free, rules are for other people, not for me.

American exceptionalism, even when used as a negative, is a stereotype, and often a fable.

but there are policy differences

american cars are measurably bigger/taller/heavier than in EU/JP. and they drive measurably faster than in EU/JP. and the walking infrastructure (crossroads/pavements) is measurably worse.

also anecdotally it's way easier to get a driving license in the US than in France or Japan (I don't know for the other EU countries) so i suspect there is a higher number of bad drivers on the road, but i have no proof for that.

that said, i went to my license renewal training session in japan last month and they informed us that the most accident-prone situation is similar to the op's one. (left-turn but on green, since turn on red is illegal and we drive on the left). when those happen generally there is a big rework of the spot to avoid repeat accident. and we have a lot of old drivers too...

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#253

Post by CalRobert »

mdip wrote: post #235
CalRobert wrote: post #109

What's even sadder is seeing how many pedestrians are killed _even as far fewer people_, especially kids, are actually walking. It's like watching drownings increase even as fewer people take up swimming. I walked to school in the 90's and even then the curtain-twitchers scolded my mom for letting me. It has only worsened since, as every destination is ages away and involves crossing multiple 45MPH stroads with monst…

I believe this has a lot to do with the problem in my area. We have a bunch of disconnected sidewalks almost everywhere. They've started connecting them. There's more pedestrian traffic at some lights at some times of the day but it's nowhere near consistent. Driving, especially during commute, becomes an exercise of muscle memory for most of us. We are used to what we see. All year long I might encounter a pedestria…

Very true - I honestly was a bad driver when I lived in suburban California (Sacramento, etc.). I generally just followed lights and didn't look for pedestrians. Then I moved somewhere people can just walk across the street anywhere (Dublin, Ireland) and got used to watching for pedestrians (sometimes kids!) like a hawk while driving.

As a result it really freaks me out when I visit home and friends and relatives will drive 25, 35, 45 mph right next to a row of parked cars where a person could walk in front of them at any moment, and not even consider the possibility of a pedestrian. It's a complete mindset shift.

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#254

Post by abricot »

One thing that isn’t mentioned in the article is that driver’s education in US is a fucking sad joke, and the driving tests even more so.

Many mention rules about yielding, and having to stop when turning right on red: most of the drivers only know a fraction of the rules. They never learned most of them.

I’m not sure about this, but my understanding is that some states don’t even require a license if you are older.

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#255

Post by ajuc »

potato3732842 wrote: post #175
ajuc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The algorithm (if followed) does not produce collisions. Pedestrians have the priority, and in many countries (inlcuding Poland where I live) cars have to stop even if nobody's on the pedestrian crossing yet - it's enough that pedestrians are approaching the crossing. This has changed in the last 10 years in Poland, and there have been numerous angry debates. It was introduced anyway, and the safety improved. It's on…

>The algorithm (if followed) does not produce collisions. Pedestrians have the priority, Yes, in magical textbook land sure. In reality there are signaled crosswalks and most pedestrians abide by them so it's not clear if any given pedestrian wants to cross at that time and the pedestrian is also looking for traffic coming from the right if they're crossing against the signal (perfectly legal, but ill advised in the…

> In reality there are signaled crosswalks

On signaled crosswalks, it obviously only applies when the light is green for pedestrians. Somebody's near the crosswalk and they have green light = you stop. It doesn't matter if they want to cross. Simple as that.

> Multiply by a nation of hundreds of millions and you get a lot of near misses and accidents.

Nation size doesn't matter for this. Poland based this law on experience from Lithuania which is 20 times smaller than us. It worked for Lithuania and it worked for us. Why would it suddenly be worse for 350 million people if it worked for 2 million and 40 million?

> ignore anyone who talks like that from any side of the issue because they're probably gonna make it worse and not better and piss everyone off in the process and make the problem harder to solve

When they teach you to optimize polynomials at school, they tell you to look for zeroes of the derivative and check which one is the global maximum. But they also tell you to look at the edges of the domain, because the highest peak might be outside the domain altogether.

I'd argue that the US is so car-centric that any effective solution will be outside of the perceived "practical" domain.

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#256

Post by Zambyte »

hkpack wrote: post #223
Zambyte wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "pavement queens" have been convinced they need larger by companies that sell trucks, because larger trucks have lower legal requirements for fuel efficiency.

Of course it is always someone else’s fault.

Not sure why you're so doomerist about it. Tax laws are way more straightforward to fix than cultural behavior.

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#257

Post by paulcole »

alterom wrote: post #249
paulcole wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the cities are designed for cars with everything else being an afterthought, people are going to driver everywhere. Not if they really hate driving and want to live differently! You can say you're a victim of circumstance or you can say I care a lot about something and have more control over your life. I'm biased because I'm 45 and have never driven a car in my life. I grew up in a very rural area in Florida,…

>You can say you're a victim of circumstance or you can say I care a lot about something and have more control over your life. >I'm biased because I'm 45 and have never driven a car in my life. I learned to drive when I was 24-25, after moving to Texas for graduate school, and cycling everywhere for a year. I cycled ~3 miles for groceries. I hauled an upright vacuum cleaner ~4 miles on a bicycle. And a bar stool. You…

> You really can't blame me for not trying hard to avoid driving.

This isn’t about “blame” (a word I never used). This is simply about what people choose to do.

> not everyone has the choice to move to a handful of metro areas in the US where living without a car isn't a pain. I'm glad you have the means and the resources.

I never earned more than $35,000 a year until I was into my 30s. I knew my life was going to be different if I wanted not drive so I made different decisions (some would call these sacrifices but I do not). I lived in a low-income studio apartment in Portland, for example. My life is not a life that everyone wants! But it is a lifestyle in which not driving is accessible to more people than those with what you believe to be “means and resources.”

All I did was think driving was really really stupid and made decisions to avoid it. This shows that it mattered a lot to me. It not mattering as much to other people is not a bad thing or a thing to “blame” someone for. I just won’t take anyone seriously who says they want to drive less or who says they hate driving but then proceeds to change their behavior not at all.

> my quality of life has gone up tremendously after getting a car

Fantastic! So then why would you care about driving less (or not at all). It seems like you’re saying that if you drove less (or not at all) your life would get worse?

I’m not sure what your point is or why you’d take such offense at my comment if you ended up making a decision that you believe made your life better?

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#258

Post by rudnevr »

rkomorn wrote: post #248
rudnevr wrote: post #246

having moved to us after 30 yrs of European experiences I would walk a lot in small and big East Cost cities. In the first year I was barely hit at least 3 times - once on the right turn with no lights (the driver only checked the left), once on the right turn red light (lack of my information so it's allowed in US), and once just when somebody went out of underground parking while talking to their phone. After that…

I'm back in Europe after more than two decades in the US and I can't say I feel much safer as a pedestrian here.

i'm back too and i definitely do

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#259

Post by rudnevr »

paulcole wrote: post #14

The answer is so simple. We really really really really like our cars/trucks/SUVs in the US and have agreed that about 30,000 to 40,000 people a year will die so that we can keep driving the way we do. It’s the price we pay for the way we choose to live.

my impression was not that most people like their SUVs, they're just don't trust other people and don't follow the conventions. While on the micro level Americans follow the conventions much more seriously than Europeans (starting from tips and down to formal office rules) and love spending time discussing those conventions, on the higher level, with risk or high stakes involved, all the conventions go out of window, and the people fall back to guns, litigators, SUVs, suburban houses in the middle of nowhere, and other ways of self-isolation and atomization.

Soccer vs american football is another visible example.

Re: Why are so many pedestrians killed by cars in the US?

#260

Post by rkomorn »

rudnevr wrote: post #258
rkomorn wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm back in Europe after more than two decades in the US and I can't say I feel much safer as a pedestrian here.

i'm back too and i definitely do

Maybe this all depends a lot on where one lived in the US and where one lived in Europe, then, rather than some binary US vs EU thing?
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