Earlier quoted context omitted.
Multi-link HDLC. That brings me back to 1985 and the Intel 8274, Zilog Z8530 and the Western Digital WD2511 (that implemented the layer 2 protocol in silicon).
Yes, that was around that time. There were a couple of problems, the first batch of chips we got was very early in the development stage of the chip, pre-production issues and there were some bugs in the chips themselves which could cause lock-up under some circumstances. We found ways to work around those and then of course there were all of the niceties around dealing with a device that generates an extremely high…
Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
51–60 of 83 posts
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#52It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. All my FPGA is much lower power consumption so I don't get to play with stuff like gigs of external SRAM or the QDR stuff or whatnot
> It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. Yes, if you think that doing pointless work is fun. What do you tell your grandchildren?
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#53less than 60ns loopback latency There are some Ethernet switches with 4ns latency, and those do more than just sending and receiving, so there's clearly still an order of magnitude of improvement still available. 4ns is basically ~40 cycles of the bit clock for 10G Ethernet.
No they don’t. At least not on the critical path. L1 switch’s at 4ns simply replicate the incoming electrical signal. That’s all they do. They also do some packet accounting and cute features off the critical path. None of that at 4ns.
Surprisingly, if ChatGPT is prompted _juust_ right, it will even give you a good way to do this.
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. Yes, if you think that doing pointless work is fun. What do you tell your grandchildren?
It's a bit unfair to call it pointless. Empirical studies have shown that HFT increase liquidity in markets, leading to narrowed spreads, market depth, faster execution speeds, cross-market informational efficiency, etc. All of these are generally beneficial to other non-HFT market participants. Now you might counter that it also brings some negatives (e.g. fleeting liquidity, market manipulation risk, etc.) and ther…
On average with a few caveats yes, but it also causes issues by reducing the vastly more important signaling aspects of the market.
Trade volume for example can get almost completely divorced from economic reality.
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that was around that time. There were a couple of problems, the first batch of chips we got was very early in the development stage of the chip, pre-production issues and there were some bugs in the chips themselves which could cause lock-up under some circumstances. We found ways to work around those and then of course there were all of the niceties around dealing with a device that generates an extremely high…
Cool. We had a small company in San Diego called Metacomp (long gone now) design a Z8530 add on module for their 80186 based Multibus board. It had two Z8530 chips on it and you could have two modules on the base board. So 8 channels total per slot.
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#56It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. All my FPGA is much lower power consumption so I don't get to play with stuff like gigs of external SRAM or the QDR stuff or whatnot
> It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. Yes, if you think that doing pointless work is fun. What do you tell your grandchildren?
Now imagine telling your grandkids you worked on pushing short form content in absolutely every app to maximize engagement and rot brains?
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Markets should not primarily be a casino. If you want to invest some of your income into a spread of companies? Go for it. But if all you are doing is trying to game the market? That's just gambling, go to a real casino and have some fun instead. HFT should be driven by these types of market makers exactly for the purpose of decreasing the amount of unnecessary speculation and volatility in the markets. HFTs killing…
> HFTs killing the spreads is one of the only reasons the markets didn't implode during covid despite the extraordinary fear and volatility that was impacting them. And why would this not be possible if everybody traded at the same, low, frequency? Alternatively, what is the minimum trading frequency required to save markets from collapsing? By trying to answer these questions you see how ridiculous the situation wit…
You are throwing things like "HFT increase the barrier to entry", "HFT make things unfair", but... how so?
What would _you_ do if you had the capability to trade at the speed of light while others cannot?
Trading faster does not magically make money appear in your account, it does not magically tell you what is going up and what is going down.
It seems people work under the assumption that HFTs make money by having the same ideas than others, but trading it faster. That is _not_ what market making is, that is _not_ what HFTs do, and trading 10ns "faster" is of absolutely no use to 99.99% of market participants. In fact, the vast majority of market participants purposefully *slow* their signals to avoid impacting the market. At any given point in time, the orderbook contains but a tiny fraction of the liquidity that most people are willing to trade.
HFTs usually run on a combination of 4 businesses, none of which provide any downside for the rest of the participants: Market making, events signals, order flow and arbitrage.
Market making: essentially they are paid (or more precisely, rebated) to "animate" the market (provide liquidity). Everyone is happier with tight spreads, and everyone is happier with some level of liquidity at the top of the book, I don't really see how that could be up to debate. This is a tough business, the market maker has to provide a contractual amount of inventory for buyers and sellers at the same time, with the risk that these assets can inadvertently increase or decrease in value. Market makers get a premium (the spread) in exchange for providing liquidity to market takers, taking the risk of holding that inventory for them.
Order flow: HFTs are usually more knowledgeable than managers (and even brokers) to perform trade execution. Remember, the price of an asset does not move "by itself". What makes the price of an asset _really_ increase is an imbalance between the size of buys and sells, causing the spread to be crossed increasingly in one direction, and eating higher and higher price levels => a market participant buying shares is self realizing the price increase. That is called market impact, and that is something nobody wants. In an ideal world, nobody would know the actual liquidity that other participants are willing to exchange on the market, that way no arbitrage would be possible, no market impact, everyone is happy. The problem though is that you need _some_ level of visibility otherwise you hinder so called "price discovery", and regulators don't like that because it's an open door for scams, hidden fees, etc. So a lot of investors just delegate the actual order passing to HFTs: you agree on a price you're happy with, and the HFT executes the orders for you. If they manage to get a better price: good for them, they can pocket the difference. If they didn't, they will have to eat the cost and do better next time. Again, it's a _difficult job_, because by very definition managers are going to try to give you _toxic flows_: if someone mandates you to buy 100 shares of Microsoft, it's because they think the price will go up, but you will quote them at the current stock price. I don't think anyone is negatively impacted by that business to be honest. I am quite happy to instantly do a trade at a known price and let an HFT take the risk of executing trades, finding liquidity, etc.
Arbitrage: This may be the most well known HFT strategy. Essentially benefiting from price disparity of more or less fungible assets. So if HSBC is priced the equivalent of $100 on the LSE and $101 on NYSE, they buy there and sell here. I don't think there is much debate on whether that's a good thing or not, everyone should be happy that prices are more or less consistent around the world. Most people also wouldn't want to bear the overnight nor settlement/FX risk of holding these.
Event signals: I guess that's what people overreact to, even though this is but a tiny and negligible part of the HFT businesses. There are strategies where the whole concept is just to be the first to react to some kind of event, and yes HFTs are the best placed to do such strategies. The thing is, this is not a very lucrative business for a simple reason, which I already stated before: at any point in time, the orderbook contains but a mere fraction of the available liquidity. And it takes *ample time* for the market impact of a trade to be absorbed. There are a lot of papers on the subject, but without entering in too much details: the bigger your order, the longer it will take for the book to absorb it and liquidity to come back. For most hedge funds doing statistical arbitrage, CTAs, etc, we are talking multiple *days*. So realistically, if you're in the business of reacting the fastest to some kind of news or event, there's really not much more you can do than cross the spread and eat one or two levels of the book. Even for the most liquid of US stocks, that's a couple hundred thousands dollar per trade on average, for a tiny return difference versus executing a couple of seconds later, so I hope you find a lot of these if you plan on getting rich.
TLDR, I think 99% of HFT hate is completely unjustified. They provide a legitimate service to most market participants, and as an investor I wouldn't want to do their job, nor would I think that they hinder in any way my investments, on the contrary.
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#58less than 60ns loopback latency There are some Ethernet switches with 4ns latency, and those do more than just sending and receiving, so there's clearly still an order of magnitude of improvement still available. 4ns is basically ~40 cycles of the bit clock for 10G Ethernet.
E.g.,
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
How's that? HFT lowers the barrier of entry for ordinary participants who just want to invest their savings either directly or through something like a pension fund, because they get all those benefits I mentioned, and those benefits are useful when you are only executing a trade once a month or year. It only increases the barrier to entry to people who want to do HFT themselves on a smaller scale, because they now c…
We all know that middlemen are bad. We don't need an HFT middleman.
Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> HFTs killing the spreads is one of the only reasons the markets didn't implode during covid despite the extraordinary fear and volatility that was impacting them. And why would this not be possible if everybody traded at the same, low, frequency? Alternatively, what is the minimum trading frequency required to save markets from collapsing? By trying to answer these questions you see how ridiculous the situation wit…
Sorry but I don't understand any of your arguments. You are throwing things like "HFT increase the barrier to entry", "HFT make things unfair", but... how so? What would _you_ do if you had the capability to trade at the speed of light while others cannot? Trading faster does not magically make money appear in your account, it does not magically tell you what is going up and what is going down. It seems people work u…
Why can't we use trading speeds such that everybody can participate, not just a few "gatekeepers"?
The average internet connection should be fast enough for trading, by now.