Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no reason why shares should be bought on sold in time frames far too short for anything to have meaningfully changed about the companies or market conditions.
So, you want everyone to trade only daily or weekly or quarterly?
SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
361–370 of 493 posts
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no reason why shares should be bought on sold in time frames far too short for anything to have meaningfully changed about the companies or market conditions.
hah someone finally said it. The financial market or whatever the f it's called has become a Monty Python sketch. Like those "pro" StarCraft gamers that keep randomly clicking their mouse for no reason except to keep their APM counter high.
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
Reg NMS’s Order Protection Rule (Rule 611) says you can’t trade through protected NBBO quotes, outside a few narrow exceptions. That’s the letter of the law. The practical effect isn’t just a bit of latency. It rewires incentives. With 611 in place, the question for latency-sensitive firms becomes: what HFT tactics can I run that are 611-compatible? Without 611, the question would be: what HFT tactics actually add va…
There is no reason why shares should be bought on sold in time frames far too short for anything to have meaningfully changed about the companies or market conditions.
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
You mean that ceo that hawks scam coins as fraudulent ways to invest in OpenAI.
OpenAI will be the largest IPO in quite some time, so I totally see why RH is trying to profit off of additional derivatives on this thing. Volume will be off the charts.
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every few seconds is fine. Disagree? You think milliseconds is “better” somehow? Then by that logic microseconds are better still! (A straight-faced argument made by thousands of HFT people.) Then, surely, nanoseconds matter. Again, some traders care deeply about shaving single digit “nanos” off their response times by using smart NICs that can respond before the incoming packet has even finished arriving! Bypassing…
This is the “speculation is bad” take with a side of naïveté about how markets work. Open an order book. Prices and quantities aren’t decoration; they’re live telemetry for supply, demand, and how tight the crowd’s consensus is at each level. That’s information, full stop. A human (or machine) trader forms a view of fair value against that tape. The book helps decide how to trade—size, urgency, venue—regardless of mo…
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
>How does that hurt me? Because lit orders get front run. Every sophisticated participant/algo is exceptionally efficient at extracting money from less sophisticated participants. As someone who trades decent volume but doesn't have a fully institutional grade workflow, I have the fortune of dealing with this... Simple lit orders (posting an order directly to an exchange) will be taking advantage of by both market ma…
I gotta say.. I'm way out of my depth on that one. As a guy who's mostly put some 401K $$ into index funds, and has the odd RSU/ESPP stock to sell - will any of these be an issue when I sell some of them later? I've only sold ESPP stock via "at this price" when I had a large enough number, and "at market" when not - but it's been in the hundreds of shares at most. May have a few thousand shares of my current employer…
By doing so you have completely identified yourself as non- informed, slow human flow. Ex: if you are looking to sell, it's blindingly obvious that the next likely move from you will be to lower the asking price. Even human traders will be a able to take advantage of that situation as a bread and butter trade.
One important aspect is that a lot of this is in terms of opportunity cost and risk. If you are posting the order at a "bad" time (let's say market makers are not long inventory and looking for liquidity), that's when one should expect front-running style action, as they want liquidity ahead of you. Likewise, if you're hanging out there and a market blip in the sector or in the depths of the market complex moves against you, you will get filled and "miss out" on the higher price that the price will settle at. And while you may think they don't care about a 50k order, these robots are hyper optimized and will have had PhDs and 9 figure plus data and infrastructure costs explicitly designed to capture every cent. That's why it's so obnoxious... It's not just market makers either. I know of a prop shop trade that involves harvesting rebates on trending stocks (stuffing the ask and amplifying the trend while receiving credits... if you've looked at stock charts you may have seen a seesaw pattern of liquidity exploration), and if you step into an active trade like that no doubt there will be at least some basic conditional logic to take advantage of stale liquidity.
I walk my very non-tech mother through manual executions on occasion. She finds it very funny that I can see her order, and without prompting has commented about how annoying the little game is.
Numbers - Let's say it's a 50 dollar stock that doesn't get a ton of volume. Most stocks are surprisingly illiquid. Which makes sense because of course nobody wants to deal with HFTs. The lit order book is almost a reference price for the actual trading that happens behind the scenes (midfills at dark venues, etc). Wouldn't surprise me at all to see 10 cents of additional slippage. That's $100. Also wouldn't shock me to see more if it's a smaller stock. Of course it's also fairly common for there to be midpoint liquidity right there for you to take. It just depends on the positioning of each of the participants, and a retail trader is at a distinct information disadvantage.
That said, it's highly unlikely that your 401k is at a DMA (direct market access) broker. Your order is probably first going to go to an internalizer (crossed with other customers), and then flashed to prop firms who will have the ability to take your order (and if they do it probably technically means that you've missed some money somewhere, although it may be in any number of obscure areas), and finally you're going to get sent to the market and pools of liquidity via a decent execution engine. On net, these routes don't work out that badly for retail participants.
Also, if you're talking a highly liquid ETF like S&P or Qs, don't worry about it. Just hit the bid.
That said, I would recommend upgrading if you can. Use a midpoint order type, split your order into chunks, spread it out time-wise a bit. Market On Open and Market On Close order types are also widely available at better retail brokers. I think that these are the most fair fills you can get. Split it 50/50 between open and closing auction. It's just a drop-down order type selector, and you can queue for the auction when you set up the order (say, early morning before the day starts) and walk away for the day and come back to filled orders.
Don't use market orders outside of the huge indexes and megacaps. You're guaranteed a bad fill, and then you also run the tiny risk of a truly awful fill (if something happens machine speed before you can blink... been there done that).
Market On Close / Market On Open orders are really easy to use. Brokers like Schwab and Fidelity and interactive brokers will support them. More people should use them. You'll be getting fair fills side by side with smart money.
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
>How does that hurt me? Because lit orders get front run. Every sophisticated participant/algo is exceptionally efficient at extracting money from less sophisticated participants. As someone who trades decent volume but doesn't have a fully institutional grade workflow, I have the fortune of dealing with this... Simple lit orders (posting an order directly to an exchange) will be taking advantage of by both market ma…
I gotta say.. I'm way out of my depth on that one. As a guy who's mostly put some 401K $$ into index funds, and has the odd RSU/ESPP stock to sell - will any of these be an issue when I sell some of them later? I've only sold ESPP stock via "at this price" when I had a large enough number, and "at market" when not - but it's been in the hundreds of shares at most. May have a few thousand shares of my current employer…
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no reason why shares should be bought on sold in time frames far too short for anything to have meaningfully changed about the companies or market conditions.
The fact that people make money off of HFT by definition means that the market conditions have changed in those time frames.
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
>How does that hurt me? Because lit orders get front run. Every sophisticated participant/algo is exceptionally efficient at extracting money from less sophisticated participants. As someone who trades decent volume but doesn't have a fully institutional grade workflow, I have the fortune of dealing with this... Simple lit orders (posting an order directly to an exchange) will be taking advantage of by both market ma…
> lit orders get front run. Every sophisticated participant/algo is exceptionally efficient at extracting money from less sophisticated participants Anyone executing via lit orders is either forced to do so or an idiot. That’s why most of the market doesn’t execute via lit orders. Which is fine. The trade is still reported ex post facto , and the inefficiencies this creates are always less than the convoluted auction…
As for retail execution, while on net there's a standard and strong argument that a less regulated market is the most efficient, retail execution is most definitely at the bottom of the totem pole, with an order shopped around to parties that can pick and choose the profitable orders before it is sent to wider liquidity pools. I think that this side of the debate is more about evening out the playing field. On net the market may get less efficient, while slower speed participants have an improved experience. These aren't contradictory.
Re: SEC approves Texas Stock Exchange, first new US integrated exchange in decades
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
>How does that hurt me? Because lit orders get front run. Every sophisticated participant/algo is exceptionally efficient at extracting money from less sophisticated participants. As someone who trades decent volume but doesn't have a fully institutional grade workflow, I have the fortune of dealing with this... Simple lit orders (posting an order directly to an exchange) will be taking advantage of by both market ma…
Theoretically, when the market offers me an order book and I take offers on one or the other side that should be totally fair? I think until execution/fill the information should be totally between me and the exchange and no one else, right? I get that if I send a limit order that can not be filled, that that affects the market because new information is introduced (before the trade) but in the previously described c…
There is a caveat though, which is that top-of-book liquidity is increasingly thin every year. It doesn't take that much size to hit the bid, take out the first thin onion layer of liquidity, and have the spread widen away from you. If you look at the live order book depth you will see that the top of book is often thin and flittering. The deeper liquidity will react to the top levels getting cleared before you can blink. (That's why if you have a non-small order and want the bid price, sweep the bid and go a few cents under, you will get a much more reliable fill and won't be left hanging with the liquidity instantly repositioned a sub-penny below you).