Vibe engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Vibe engineering

#551

Post by pron » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:34 PM UTC

robjellinghaus wrote: post #521

pron wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Test-driven development helps protect against wrong code, but it's not code I'm interested in, and it's not wrong code that I'm afraid of (I mean, that's table stakes). What I need is something that would help me generate understanding and do so reliably (even if the performance is poor). I can't exercise high-level knowledge efficiently if my only reliable input is code. Once you have to work at the code level at ev…

In my experience with Claude Code and Sonnet, it is absolutely possible to have architectural and design-oriented conversations about the work, at an entirely different and higher level than using a (formerly) high-level programming language. I have been able to learn new systems and frameworks far faster with Claude than with any previous system I have used. It definitely does require close attention to detect mista…

Indeed, I successfully use LLMs for research, and they're an improvement because old-school search isn't very reliable either.

But as to the 80-20 tradeoff on other tasks, the problem isn't that the tool is wrong 20% of the time, but that it's not trustworthy 100% of the time. I have to check the work. Maybe that's still valuable, but just how valuable that is depends on many factors, some of which are very domain-dependent and others are completely subjective. We're talking about replacing one style with another that is much better in some respects and much worse in others. If, on the whole, it was better in almost all cases, that would be one thing (and make the investment safer), but reports suggest it isn't.

I've yet to try an LLM to learn a new codebase, and I have no doubt it will help a lot, but while that is undoubtedly a very expensive task, it's also not a very frequent one. It could maybe save me a week per year, amortised. That's not nothing (and I will certainly give it a try next time I need to learn a new codebase), but it's also not a game-changer.

Re: Vibe engineering

#552

Post by simonw » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:35 PM UTC

floatrock wrote: post #540

senko wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching between the two parallel agents (frontend & backend, same project), requiring context switches. I'm speccing out the task in detail for one agent, then reviewing code for the previous task on the other agent and testing the implementation, then speccing the next part for that one (or asking for fixes/tweaks), then back to the first agent. They're way faster in producing code than I am in reviewing and spell…

I've been meaning to try out some text-to-speech to see if that makes it a bit easier. Part of the difficulty of "spelling out in detail what I want" is the need for precise written language, which is high cognitive load, which makes the context switching difficult. Been wondering if just natural speaking could both speed up typing. Maybe have an embedded transform/compaction that strips out all the ummms and gets to…

This works really well already. You can fire up something like Wispr Flow and dump what you're saying directly into Claude Code or similar, it will ignore the ums and usually figure out what you mean.

I use ChatGPT voice mode in their iPhone app for this. I walk the dog for an hour and have a loose conversation with ChatGPT through my AirPods, then at the end I tell it to turn everything we discussed into a spec I can paste into Claude Code.

Re: Vibe engineering

#553

Post by nyantaro1 » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:36 PM UTC

Bjorkbat wrote: post #526

subarctic wrote: post #151

I just feel so discouraged reading this somehow. I used to have this hard-to-get, in-demand skill that paid lots of money and felt like even though programming languages, libraries and web frameworks were always evolving I could always keep up because I'm smart. But now with these people like Simon Willison writing about the new way of coding with these agents and multiple streams of work going on at a time and it so…

I think people underestimate the degree to which fun matters when it comes to productivity. If something isn’t fun then I’ll likely put it off. A 15 minute task can become hours, maybe days long, because I’m going to procrastinate on doing it. If managing a bunch of AI agents is a very un-fun way to spend time, then I don’t think it’s the future. If the new way of doing this is more work and more tedium, then why the…

I think some people have more fun using LLM agents and generative AI tools. Not my case, but you can definitely read a bunch of comments from people using the tools and having fun/experience a state of flow like they have never had before

Re: Vibe engineering

#554

Post by unoti » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:39 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #466

simonw wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really sorry to hear this, because part of my goal here is to help push back against the idea that "programming skills are useless now, anyone can get an LLM to write code for them". I think existing software development skills get a whole lot more valuable with the addition of coding agents. You can take everything you've learned up to this point and accelerate the impact you can have with this new family of too…

I'm not sure that having the patience to work with something with a very inconsistent performance and that frequently lies is an extension of existing development skills. It doesn't work like tools developers use and it doesn't work like people developers work with. Furthermore, techniques of working with agents today may be completely outdated a year from now. The acceleration is also inconsistent: sometimes there's…

> I'm not sure that having the patience to work with something with a very inconsistent performance and that frequently lies is an extension of existing development skills.

If you’ve be been tasked with leadership of an engineering effort involving multiple engineers and stakeholders you know that this is in fact a crucial part of the role the more senior you get. It is much the same with people: know their limitations, show them a path to success, help them overcome their limitations by laying down the right abstractions and giving them the right coaching, make it easier to do the right thing. Most of the same approaches apply. When we do these things with people it’s called leadership or management. With agents, it’s context engineering.

Re: Vibe engineering

#555

Post by devin » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:42 PM UTC

vcanales wrote: post #542

subarctic wrote: post #151

I just feel so discouraged reading this somehow. I used to have this hard-to-get, in-demand skill that paid lots of money and felt like even though programming languages, libraries and web frameworks were always evolving I could always keep up because I'm smart. But now with these people like Simon Willison writing about the new way of coding with these agents and multiple streams of work going on at a time and it so…

I feel the opposite. I get to sit down and think about problems, expressing them in words as best I can, and then review the code, make sure that I understand it and it works as it should, all in a fraction of the time it used to take me. I like that I don't have to google APIs as much as I did before, and instead I can get a working thing much faster. I can focus on actually solving problems rather than on writing c…

I feel this way with some of the work I've pushed through an LLM, but part of the time I'm left wondering what kind of Mickey Mouse problems people are working on where they are able to form up tidy English descriptions in complicated domains to capture what they're trying to achieve.

If I have a clear idea of some algorithm I am trying to write, I have a concise method for expressing it already, and it ain't English.

I suppose the other thing I would say is that reading code and understanding is definitely not the same as writing code and understanding it in terms of depth of understanding, and I think this notion that reviewing the outputs ought to be enough fails to capture the depth of understanding that comes with actually crafting it. You may not think this matters, but I'm pretty sure it does.

Re: Vibe engineering

#556

Post by walleeee » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:47 PM UTC

hollerith wrote: post #443

hansvm wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully, yelling like an angry foreman is more effective on LLMs than people. > Get your fucking act together, and stop with the bullshit comments, shipping unfinished code, and towering mess of abstractions. I've seen you code properly before. You're an expert for God's sake. One more mistake, and you're fired. Fix it, now!

I wouldn't talk that way to an LLM for fear of its bleeding over into my interactions with people. Back when computer performance was increasing faster than it is now and was more important to the user experience, a friend upgraded to a faster computer and suddenly became more impatient with me. He seemed to have expected my response time to have drastically decreased just like his computer's did.

Effects like these, those of our tools on ourselves which occur slowly/subtly enough that we hardly notice, underlie a great many of our greatest problems, I think

Re: Vibe engineering

#557

Post by samiv » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

sally_glance wrote: post #262

saulpw wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but for myself, I'm not depressed because my skills are less valuable. I enjoyed the money but it was never about that for me. I'm depressed because I don't like the way this new coding feels in my brain. My focus and attention are my most precious resources and vibe coding just shatters them. I want to be absorbed in a coding flow where I see all the levels of the system and ca…

Well said! Reading this I feel reminded of the early protests against industrialization and automation in other fields. Checks all the same boxes - insecurity and fear about the future, alienation towards the new tools, ... Not saying AI is similar in impact to the loom or something, it just occured to me how close this is to early Luddite texts.

I'd say the fear is justified. The economy should serve the people and the citizens not the other way around. Yet, our economies are increasingly the other way around, people have to fit into to the shape of the economy.

It's not hard to see a future where the workers displaced by AI get pushed to the sidelines and fringes of the society while the capital holders hoard more wealth and get the benefits of the "value" created.

We already have half the population on this planet living in slums without access to economic means and in the "developed" countries larger and larger group of people are barely hanging on either already displaced and unemployed or working jobs below living wages.

Frankly, It'd stupid not to be concerned.

Re: Vibe engineering

#558

Post by shortrounddev2 » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

nyantaro1 wrote: post #553

Bjorkbat wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people underestimate the degree to which fun matters when it comes to productivity. If something isn’t fun then I’ll likely put it off. A 15 minute task can become hours, maybe days long, because I’m going to procrastinate on doing it. If managing a bunch of AI agents is a very un-fun way to spend time, then I don’t think it’s the future. If the new way of doing this is more work and more tedium, then why the…

I think some people have more fun using LLM agents and generative AI tools. Not my case, but you can definitely read a bunch of comments from people using the tools and having fun/experience a state of flow like they have never had before

I think the majority of people I've worked with who have the title of "Software Engineer" do not like coding. They got into it for the money/career, and dream of eventually moving out of coding into management. I can count the number of coders who I've met who like coding on one hand

Re: Vibe engineering

#559

Post by muldvarp » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 4:00 PM UTC

spyckie2 wrote: post #510

muldvarp wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is claiming that any of the alternatives are better jobs than software engineering has been for the last 20 years. We don't live in the last 20 years anymore and software engineering is either becoming a different (worse) job or simply vanishing.

But it’s necessary to get confirmation against the hope that the grass is indeed not greener on the other side.

The software engineering grass is getting really brown really fast. The grass on the other side will be greener (not green, greener) soon.

Re: Vibe engineering

#560

Post by input_sh » Wed, Oct 08, 2025, 4:03 PM UTC

simonw wrote: post #401

input_sh wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy your last sentence at all. AGENTS.md is just a place to put stuff you don't want to tell LLMs over and over again. They're not magical instructions LLMs follow 100% of the time, they don't carry any additional importance over what you put into the prompt manually. Your carefully curated AGENTS.md is only really useful at the very beginning of the conversation, but the longer the conversation gets, the les…

> Your carefully curated AGENTS.md is only really useful at the very beginning of the conversation, but the longer the conversation gets, the less important those tokens on the top are. If that's genuinely causing you problems you can restart your session frequently to avoid the context rot.

Come on, let's not pretend 100k tokens is something I need to spend hours to reach for your helpful advice to be even remotely valid, it's something even the most basic problems struggle to fit into.

For the fun of it I just started a new conversation with Sonnet 4, passed it one 550 lines long file (25 kilobytes) and my AGENTS.md (I then asked it to re-write a part of it to "make it look better" (184 lines added, 112 lines deleted according to git) and I'm already at 33k before I got to review a single line. Heaven forbid I need to build on top of that change in a different file, because by then my AGENTS.md might as well not exist!