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Vibe engineering

simonwillison.net

191–200 of 759 posts

Re: Vibe engineering

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel a certain way when I hear about older programmers who used to program using punch cards, I guess everyone in the future will think about us in the same way?

[flagged]

Haha - cool that you made a throwaway insult account just for this. I meant punch cards as a placeholder for programming in a bygone era, about how it feels so different, distant and detached, and that I don't relate to it.

I can see a plausible future where if we go down this route, what I call coding right now will feel the same.

Re: Vibe engineering

#192
I've been thinking about AI-assisted development for a while; I've tried out Claude's pro plan, Gemini Pro and many "top models" and I must say, this is going to create a chasm for junior/intermediate developers like myself, senior engineers reached to the point they are through deliberate practice-- interrogating code, making and breaking assertions, reading through the documentation or actually comprehending the code through the debugger or mental models. I don't "need" to do any of this. I can have an AI just spoon-feed me a large codebase in "ELI5" language, I can ask an AI about the best practices, I can have an AI look something up for me, synthesize it and wrap it up nicely for my mind to consume (equivalent to how hyper-processed junk food isn't good for our bodies either)

It's intellectual slop. It will get the job done (atleast for a while) but without the actual growth that comes along with it. When I use an AI to one-shot a "small one-off script" I don't learn anything from it (when as a relatively new developer I SHOULD be learning something from it) And this is unlike stack overflow or googling becuase you can turn off your mind, just become one of those drones from Wall-E.

I make a point to avoid using any AI for coding (even for looking things up) when working on personal projects, at the cost of "productivty" and "efficiency" , but I get to retain my humanity and soul in programming.

Sorry if this sounds cheesy, it's just I care deeply about code craftsmanship from my end, to see that skill be diminished to an random number generator? Yeah No.

Re: Vibe engineering

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, it's probably only the impostor syndrome. Your development skills are still relevant. Think of agents as junior developers that assist you in coding tasks, whom you constantly need to mentor, review, and correct.

Can we all agree that "mentoring" LLMs is actually a waste of time, please? The reason we invest this time in Junior devs is so they improve. LLMs do not

> Can we all agree that "mentoring" LLMs is actually a waste of time, please?

Sorry, we can't. While it's true that you can't really modify the underlying model, updating your AGENTS.md (or whatever) with your expected coding style, best practices, common gotchas etc is a type of mentoring.

Re: Vibe engineering

#194

Thank you for writing this, Simon. I'm using an anonymous account not tied to my main one, so if the mods want to delete it, go ahead, but I really need to rant. My company has been taking this same approach for the past two months. While the rest of the world is warning about the effects of vibe coding and AI-slop, we're fully embracing it, calling it "working smart" and "automate all things!" It's utterly ridiculou…

I can totally relate, very similar situation here.

I am currently kind of an anti-AI black sheep in engineering department because I refuse to fully embrace the exponentials and give in to the vibes.

I avoid burnout by simply switching off my brain from all this noise about vibe coding - i have thought hard and long, i know the way this is being implemented is wrong, i know they will create problems for themselves down the road (they already have, the signs are already there), i will be here to dig them out when the time comes.

So far I don't see anyone shipping faster or better with AI than I can manually, so I'm good.

Re: Vibe engineering

#195

I just feel so discouraged reading this somehow. I used to have this hard-to-get, in-demand skill that paid lots of money and felt like even though programming languages, libraries and web frameworks were always evolving I could always keep up because I'm smart. But now with these people like Simon Willison writing about the new way of coding with these agents and multiple streams of work going on at a time and it so…

Don't worry, it's probably only the impostor syndrome. Your development skills are still relevant. Think of agents as junior developers that assist you in coding tasks, whom you constantly need to mentor, review, and correct.

So my development skills are still relevant because I need to use my managerial skills?

Re: Vibe engineering

#196
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really sorry to hear this, because part of my goal here is to help push back against the idea that "programming skills are useless now, anyone can get an LLM to write code for them". I think existing software development skills get a whole lot more valuable with the addition of coding agents. You can take everything you've learned up to this point and accelerate the impact you can have with this new family of too…

I need to read through this some more, but there has been another genetic coding paradigm referred to as spec driven development. I’ll find the link in the morning, but I kinda joke - it’s vibe coding for people who know how to define a problem and iterate on it. I’ve got a project reimplementing a service I want to make more uniform. Claude has produced a lot of stuff that would have taken me weeks to do.

GitHub's SpecKit is an example: https://github.com/github/spec-kit

Spec-Driven Development treats the spec as the source of truth and the code as an artifact. As you develop, you modify/add to the spec and the codebase gets updated to reflect it.

Personally I'm doubtful it can compete with traditional artisanal software engineering, as it's (IMHO) boils down to "if only you can spec it precisely enough, it'll work" and we've tried this with 5GL and (to some extent) BDD, and it doesn't get you to 100%.

I do think it's interesting enough to explore, and most of us could use a bit more details in our Jira tickets.

Re: Vibe engineering

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel a certain way when I hear about older programmers who used to program using punch cards, I guess everyone in the future will think about us in the same way?

I feel a certain way when I work with older programmers who used to program using punch cards, and debug actual core dumps, i.e. the main memory of the computer printed out in hex. They have incredible attention to detail, and can reason about why their programs didn't do what they expected.

In some ways slower feedback loops might be useful. Having to think and reason if your code is correct and actually works because you only get output next day...

Instead of just vibing something out, pushing it to prod and seeing the problems. Or not even checking...

Re: Vibe engineering

#198

I just feel so discouraged reading this somehow. I used to have this hard-to-get, in-demand skill that paid lots of money and felt like even though programming languages, libraries and web frameworks were always evolving I could always keep up because I'm smart. But now with these people like Simon Willison writing about the new way of coding with these agents and multiple streams of work going on at a time and it so…

It is just a new way of coding. And indeed what the blog post said, if you are experienced, you will benefit the most as the AI agent will make similar mistakes as a junior and you will be able to recognize them.

But indeed, the fun part of coding a couple of routines is gone. That is history.

Re: Vibe engineering

#199
To people reading the article: replace the word "agent" with "intern".

> Without tests? Your intern might claim something works without having actually tested it at all, plus any new change could break an unrelated feature without you realizing it. Test-first development is particularly effective with interns that can iterate in a loop.

Vibe engineer? No, try technical manager.

Re: Vibe engineering

#200
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we all agree that "mentoring" LLMs is actually a waste of time, please? The reason we invest this time in Junior devs is so they improve. LLMs do not

I had a fascinating conversation about this the other day. An engineer was telling me about his LLM process, which is effectively this: 1. Collaborate on a detailed spec 2. Have it implement that spec 3. Spend a lot of time on review and QA - is the code good? Does the feature work well? 4. Take lessons from that process and write them down for the LLM to use next time - using CLAUDE.md or similar That last step is t…

I don't buy your last sentence at all.

AGENTS.md is just a place to put stuff you don't want to tell LLMs over and over again. They're not magical instructions LLMs follow 100% of the time, they don't carry any additional importance over what you put into the prompt manually. Your carefully curated AGENTS.md is only really useful at the very beginning of the conversation, but the longer the conversation gets, the less important those tokens on the top are. Somewhere around 100k tokens AGENTS.md might as well not exit, I constantly have to "remind it" of the very first paragraph there.

Go start a conversation and contradict what's written in AGENTS.md half way through the problem. Which of the two contradicting statements will take preference? The latter one! Therefore, all the time you've spent curating your AGENTS.md is the time you've wasted thinking you're "teaching" LLMs anything.

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