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Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

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Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's on nobody except Microsoft and Meta for testing against Chromium only.

It was a bug in WebKit that WebKit had to fix (and as you know, Safari takes a long time getting those fixes into consumer's hands).

> takes a long time

If it even does.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me as a consumer: - browsers having to go through Apple means slower updates (including for bugs or security), not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple forces every alternative-engine browser to use a pretty broken framework that Safari does not use, not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple's restrictions on alternative engines in the EU are a vast list of malicious compliance[0], making those engines a…

Those views are "you as a developer." Very few actual end users think about or care about any of these things.

The consumer can't articulate policy.

Consumers in a general sense don't know much of how the world works - safe radiation exposure, food safety, drug dosing thermodynamics, household electrical wiring, airborne particulate, airline maintenance...

This is why we have a government regulatory regime to protect them. The government has to strong arm companies out of bad behavior, because consumers do not understand.

Some people who have Apple and Google stock will voice opinion against regulation. Or people who really love their devices and don't understand the harms.

But the fact is that this Titanic command of markets damages the robustness of the economy. Google and Apple are doing massive harm.

Capitalism should be hard. It should be a treadmill. You shouldn't be able to coast.

We like the market. We like evolutionary pressure. Giants this large, however, are an ecological hack that get to escape the same algorithm we subject every other company to. They created an artificial and illegal means to prevent themselves from facing competition. They're an invasive species picking on ecosystems that literally cannot fight back.

It's a good thing that new companies can (or could) threaten old companies. It's a renewing forest fire, a de-ossification. It rewards innovation capital rather than institutions.

Apple and Google have found a way to forever avoid this by wedging themselves in as "owners of mobile computing". These two companies own it. Period. You don't. Consumers don't. No other company can even enter into the arena. You play by their rules.

Antitrust enforcement has never been more needed. We've had two decades of devices we really only rent and don't own. Devices that strangle consumer control over how we spend our time and money.

If America doesn't do it, foreign countries seeking sovereignty should.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me as a consumer: - browsers having to go through Apple means slower updates (including for bugs or security), not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple forces every alternative-engine browser to use a pretty broken framework that Safari does not use, not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple's restrictions on alternative engines in the EU are a vast list of malicious compliance[0], making those engines a…

Those views are "you as a developer." Very few actual end users think about or care about any of these things.

You're right. They may be a "consumer" but they're wearing their develop hat. Consumers don't care about update cycles.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me as a consumer: - browsers having to go through Apple means slower updates (including for bugs or security), not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple forces every alternative-engine browser to use a pretty broken framework that Safari does not use, not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple's restrictions on alternative engines in the EU are a vast list of malicious compliance[0], making those engines a…

Those views are "you as a developer." Very few actual end users think about or care about any of these things.

Very few actual care about Apple controlling the apps you install as well. And even fewer understand what “OS API access” mean.

Just because consumers are unaware that a problem exist doesn't mean they wouldn't care if they knew.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#45
Thank you for the belly-laugh. It's Goodhart's Law in graph form.

"Oh, is this metric important? Let me get right on that."

No shade intended towards the Ladybird team. You were given the terms and you're behaving rationally in response to them. More power to you. It's just a fantastic demonstration of what it looks like to very suddenly be developing against a very specific metric.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#46
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Person in tech me is in conflict with customer me as to who is to blame. Maybe system imposed browser/agent defaults were a mistake after all.

So it's okay for a website builder to test in only one browser defaulting to an imposed browser/agent restriction?

The point is they are not even compliment to their "own" spec. They are part of whatwg. But if you ever write web page. You will know it's always the safari that differs from the spec. Firefox in the other end never have such issue.

Write a page on chrome, works 90% on Firefox. But will likely works 10% on safari. Supports safari literally means support another browser (by workaround all its bugs).

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#47
post #45

Thank you for the belly-laugh. It's Goodhart's Law in graph form. "Oh, is this metric important ? Let me get right on that." No shade intended towards the Ladybird team. You were given the terms and you're behaving rationally in response to them. More power to you. It's just a fantastic demonstration of what it looks like to very suddenly be developing against a very specific metric.

Have you tried using Ladybird recently? Admittedly I haven't but I've seen the rapid progress they've made over the last year. They might just be targeting this arbitrary metric but I'm inclined to believe that they've made real progress towards building a usable browser.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those views are "you as a developer." Very few actual end users think about or care about any of these things.

You're right. They may be a "consumer" but they're wearing their develop hat. Consumers don't care about update cycles.

As a consumer I definitely want my browsers to always be up to date and be able to address 0day bugs as soon as the browser vendors are aware. Any potential delays on fixing security issues make me nervous.

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#49
post #17

Me as engineer: it's wild a big corporation dictates a quality bar and limit API access for 3rd party software. Me as customer: oh man I'm sure glad stuff is reviewed to some quality bar and the OS limits API access.

also me as an engineer:

I hope it’s the correct 90%!

Re: Ladybird passes the Apple 90% threshold on web-platform-tests

#50
post #17

Me as engineer: it's wild a big corporation dictates a quality bar and limit API access for 3rd party software. Me as customer: oh man I'm sure glad stuff is reviewed to some quality bar and the OS limits API access.

It’s not wild, it is anti-competitive and entirely about maintaining control in unfair ways
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