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Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

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Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#281

Post by piva00 »

kragen wrote: post #279
piva00 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has changed permitting laws to allow small-scale solar, i.e.: balcony solar, the difference is that the nominal output is much lower (350W vs 800W for Germany) which, by policy, makes it less attractive. So it isn't that France economic policies have made installing balcony solar unattractive, it's the permitting policies which are blocking people from installing more. You have it inverted, pun intended.

Germany could allow 2000W, or 4000W, instead of only 800W, but you seem to be missing Alexey's point. Germany has very high electricity prices, even higher than the US (see https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-e... ), and this is due to policy failures in Germany. That's what makes these balcony systems so appealing. I'm not sure that the outcome of having a lot of decentralized solar generation…

No, I didn't miss the point, I know they were talking about electricity prices. My counterpoint is that France is not seeing balcony solar not only because electricity prices are lower but due to policies which limit it.

It's a both-things can be true, even though France has also been getting more issues with electricity generation from its nuclear fleet caused by droughts, and high temperatures in their cooling water supply.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#282

Post by kragen »

plantain wrote: post #272
kragen wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misunderstanding plantain's point. Where I live, in Argentina, every house has a water tank on the roof, which is filled from the water main through a float valve, like a toilet tank. Many houses need a pump to drive the water up to the water tank because the water main has such low pressure. This is somewhat expensive, and the pumps, float valves, and water tanks fail sometimes, which is inconvenient.…

You understood my point better than myself.

Thanks! I've been experiencing collective action failures acutely in recent years, so I'm glad my perspective was valuable.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#283

Post by cjpearson »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #246

Germany did one simple thing (uncharacteristically) which is removing all the bureaucracy here. Just go ahead and do it. It's fine. Cost in the article is cited at 550 euro. I just browsed amazon.de and you can buy complete plug and play kits here in Germany for as little as 239 euro. Most kits are priced between 300-350 euro. I did not see a many kits over 500. I pay about 70 euro per month for electricity. If it sa…

A big factor in the quick return (and maybe one reason for its popularity) is that Germany has some of the most expensive electricity in the world. The ROI doesn't look as attractive in France, the US or Norway.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#284

Post by dathinab »

duskwuff wrote: post #30
dathinab wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is nothing lol about it, if you commonly connect anything larger without additional precautions to it you end up in an endless number of safety hazards and guess what if you do take extra steps you also can have larger solar systems sure non of this steps are practical for rented out apartments, but quite viable for owned apartments and houses

I'm not sure what kind of laptop you're using, but most laptops I'm aware of use considerably less than 800W. :)

oh yes I missed the point,

I mean 60W chargers are common for a laptop.

800W is enough to run 2x console gaming setup (~200W console + Even for PC gaming where GPU power draw has gotten unhinged 800W you can get you a 5060 setup (~600W) + monitor working, or something like a framework desktop based gaming system (~400W) + monitor.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#285

Post by [deleted] »

slow_typist wrote: post #275
kragen wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That page doesn't say anything about PV. https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/p... says that 17 million hectares are used for agriculture in Germany, 48000 hectares are used for golf courses, and (as of 02021) 32000 hectares were used for photovoltaics, which would be 0.2% of the agricultural area. I'm having a hard time finding current figures, but I doubt photovoltaics are more than 2% of the…

Thanks for looking up the numbers, and it wasn’t my intention to exaggerate the influence of PV. I just wanted to point out there is a lot of pressure and it may be a sensible policy to use up rooftops first instead of arable land (even though the influence of PV on land lease rates might be negligible today).

[deleted]

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#286

Post by ben_w »

oezi wrote: post #211
jacquesm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a ridiculous take. Germany did not screw up their energy policy, they had a transition plan that ended up not working due to one of the partners in that plan starting a war and believing that they had Germany by the short hairs to stop them from interfering. For individuals in Europe that have the possibility to spend a few hundred (or even a few thousand) bucks up front to lower their energy bill is a win fo…

I share your take on the gas policy failure. It was hard to prevent because Russian gas was so cheap. How could the German government have forced companies to buy more expensive gas elsewhere?

> How could the German government have forced companies to buy more expensive gas elsewhere?

By not building the gas pipelines.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#287

Post by DennisL123 »

cjpearson wrote: post #283
jillesvangurp wrote: post #246

Germany did one simple thing (uncharacteristically) which is removing all the bureaucracy here. Just go ahead and do it. It's fine. Cost in the article is cited at 550 euro. I just browsed amazon.de and you can buy complete plug and play kits here in Germany for as little as 239 euro. Most kits are priced between 300-350 euro. I did not see a many kits over 500. I pay about 70 euro per month for electricity. If it sa…

A big factor in the quick return (and maybe one reason for its popularity) is that Germany has some of the most expensive electricity in the world. The ROI doesn't look as attractive in France, the US or Norway.

In the US the price varies a lot by state [1].

[1] https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#288

Post by valenterry »

brucehoult wrote: post #184
valenterry wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 400W half decently oriented panel (i.e. south facing balcony, 60 degree angle) is sufficient to run your AC to cool your 50sqrm apartment during summer for free.

In the summer the optimal angle where I live (35.5º S) is 12º. Panels lying flat on the lawn are losing only 2% from that. Just now, near the equinox, panels lying flat on the lawn lose around 18% at noon. I'll find a way to prop them up at 50º for winter when the time comes for that (April or May), though that's for sunny conditions. In our typical overcast in winter flat on the ground is probably still fine to catc…

Right. I mentioned the suboptimal 60 degrees because many people hang it from the balcony (90 degrees) and the tilt it a bit, but usually not too much. From what I've seen 60 degrees seems like a good average number.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#289

Post by jcattle »

cjpearson wrote: post #283
jillesvangurp wrote: post #246

Germany did one simple thing (uncharacteristically) which is removing all the bureaucracy here. Just go ahead and do it. It's fine. Cost in the article is cited at 550 euro. I just browsed amazon.de and you can buy complete plug and play kits here in Germany for as little as 239 euro. Most kits are priced between 300-350 euro. I did not see a many kits over 500. I pay about 70 euro per month for electricity. If it sa…

A big factor in the quick return (and maybe one reason for its popularity) is that Germany has some of the most expensive electricity in the world. The ROI doesn't look as attractive in France, the US or Norway.

That is definitely a factor. But depending on your energy usage and how smart your home appliances are, you can save a lot more than 10%. I.e. if you run all your washing and most of the heating of the water tank during your own generation times you can potentially save quite a lot more than 10%.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#290

Post by Ozzie_osman »

numlock86 wrote: post #238

> Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels A more fitting title would be "Germany's citizens outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels". The current phrasing makes it sound like it's somehow a thing done by the government, which is not the case. If anything the government is one of the many forces slowing down this progress. And yes, I am aware of things like grid security and stability…

Given that these things are usually hindered by the government's bureaucracy, maybe the best title would be "Germany's government removes obstacles preventing residents from outfitting..."
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