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Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

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Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#221
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does your vision of perfect solar power look like? And within that vision, is a free person still able to decide for themselves if they want to buy a solar panel to hang on their balcony?

People are entitled to do as they want, even if it's not profitable. I am just pointing out that if the economics of this add up, people have been seriously let down by their governments.

According to the article, the economics of balcony solar pay off in less than ~5 years. That's really pretty good compared to approximately any other point in the history of solar power. The payoff is small, but the investment is also small.

Now, sure: That quick payoff is only possible because electricity in Germany is very expensive, but there's reasons for that, too: Unlike some nations, Germany isn't sitting on a ton of high-quality fossil fuels.

They do have lots of lignite, and they do mine it and use it, but lignite is so low-energy that transportation becomes a serious financial burden: A train full of lignite can cost more to move around than it can produce, Joule per Joule. They've solved some of that problem by putting power plants right next to the mines (which is smart: build transmission lines instead of rail lines!), but their domestic fossil fuel resources are not a matter of policy. They're limited to whatever they have in the ground.

And for reasons that must make sense to someone, they've completely phased out their domestic nuclear power. (I'm not interested in discussing whether that's good or bad, but it remains fact.)

As far as I can tell, electrical production and distribution in Germany is comprised of a mixture of private entities (eg, companies with profit motive) and public (government-operated) entities -- similar to how it is where I am here in the States, and also where you are in Australia.

And quite clearly: The private entities are obviously interested in maximizing their potential profit. They are, after all, principally in the business of making money.

It's easy to say that it's a governmental failure that ultimately allows balcony solar to have such a quick return... but private enterprise is also involved, so they get to share the blame as well.

If it is profitable to do solar power at utility scale, in Germany, then: Why isn't more of it being done? If the answer is "just rent a few thousand hectares at a few hundred euros per year and cover it all with solar," then why does the private sector not cash in on all the easy money of utility-scale solar power?

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#222
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen in Germany. Most people in Germany don't live big and don't have any intentions of doing so. No AC and people have real concerns about the environment and our impact on it.

Obviously it won't happen anywhere from air conditioning. But, for example, atmospheric carbon capture (putting the CO₂ back in the ground) could use a lot of energy. Most likely, though, it will be things we can't even imagine today. Imagine that you're in 01980 trying to predict how people will use personal computers in 02000. Would you predict the World-Wide Web, Usenet erotica newsgroups, virtual reality, banner…

Wise of you to be using 5-digit years. Really preempts the "but what about 8000 years from now" questions.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#223
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The $2,000 plug-in solar system installed on Dwyer’s backyard deck in March consists of two 400 watt panels, an inverter, a smart meter and a circuit breaker. It saves him around $35 per month on his power bill because he is consuming less energy from the grid, but he said reducing his carbon footprint was his primary motivation. so about 5yrs ROI And in germany a similar 5yr ratio (With some german cities subsidiz…

That's way overpriced. An 800W solar system is easily under US$1000 now.

200-300 EUR without installation is the current best price in Europe + shipping:

https://geizhals.de/?cat=bmsesbk&xf=1601_780.50*1200~1603_2&...

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sort of my point. You are essentially getting to parity to a grid operator, who does not pay VAT.

I see, but the grid operator has to collect the VAT for every kWh from the customer. I don’t pay VAT for my balcony PV and also not for the energy I get from it. That is not parity, I as a producer have an advantage here.

This is a good point.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#225
What is the real throughput of panels mounted vertically? I have put solar on my roof plus batteries and it reduced significantly my dependence on gas and cost of heating bills, but they're mounted on two sides so they see the sun from early-mid morning to mid afternoon, with peaks roughly mid day depending on season. I've always been skeptical about vertically mounted ones but people say they work, so not sure what to think.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#226

This would be very cute if it was some 3rd world island country grasping at the straws to improve their quality of life...doing this. But you're fucking Germany bro....where's your massproduced precision reactors and turbines everywhere..the planet needs work...what the f.. are you guys even doing..a rising standard of living means 10-100x more energy you know that right? This whole attitude feels like clapping for a…

Standard of living has been decoupled from energy consumption for quite some time now in developed countries.

That's because they've been in an energy crisis for the last 50 years, so much advancement was by improvement of efficiency. Because of the dramatic cost reductions of photovoltaic modules, that energy crisis is over now.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#227

Some people laugh at the 800W output. However, in Indonesia, roughly half of the 300 million people live in homes with an electricity capacity of 900W or less. Wish these kind of panels were available at that price here. We have pretty much 12 hours of sunlight every single day but household solar panel is discouraged by the state owned utilities.

[flagged]

These panels are heavily subsidised. My brother got it almost completely financed by the state of Berlin a few years back.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#228

What is the real throughput of panels mounted vertically? I have put solar on my roof plus batteries and it reduced significantly my dependence on gas and cost of heating bills, but they're mounted on two sides so they see the sun from early-mid morning to mid afternoon, with peaks roughly mid day depending on season. I've always been skeptical about vertically mounted ones but people say they work, so not sure what…

You loose performance at noon/summer, when you are likely to produce over your demand anyway.

But during winter/rainy days, when you are limited to diffuse light, they deliver the same output.

The point is that panels are so dead cheap now, that efficiency of orientation is no longer an issue.

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#229
post #175

I have cut my warm water costs by 80% with balcony solar panels. I have a warm water heating pump with 600 W electrical power. My little server turns it automatically on when the solar access power is greater than 540 W (measured by the smart meter). This generates usually enough warm water for our household. Also the solar panels cover to idle power of the house of 50-100 W very easily during daytime. This pays off…

Yes, but where do you live?

Well, the person you are replying to is in a thread about Germany, mentions balcony solar and said "my little server turns it automatically on" (which is how you would construct that sentence in German instead of "turns it on automatically"), so my wild guess would be Germany. ;)

Re: Germany outfitted half a million balconies with solar panels

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don’t understand this sentiment at all. They didn’t sacrifice their balcony, and this is electricity that the central utility organizations couldn’t generate. Many parts of the world don’t even allow this kind of solar panel to be used by individuals, so its legality is actually a policy success. Generally, balcony panels are hung off the side of the railing, so no space was lost. If this was blocking out windows o…

Yeah the narrative always seems to be bent by political biases seeping in.

It is easy to speculate that if were talking about the flip side about how power company cartels have regulatory capture to prevent home owners from complementing home power needs with private systems then there would be freedom outrage at the system. But a positive story about how a soft european liberal country allowing home owners to complement home power needs with private systems is seen as a failure of the state?

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