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What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

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Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#141

Post by devjab »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #62
devjab wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked with C# professionally for a decade, going through the changes with LINQ, async/await, Roslyn, and the rise of .NET Core, to .NET Core becoming .NET, I disagree. I certainly think that C# is a great tool and that it’s the best it has ever been. It’s also relies on very implicit behaviour, it is build upon OOP design principles and a bunch of “needless” abstraction. Things I personally have come to view…

You are missing the forest for the trees. C# has increasingly become more terse (e.g. switch expressions, collection initializers, object initializers, etc) and, IMO, is a good balance between OOP and functional[0]. Functions are first class objects in C# and teams can write functional style C# if they want. But I suspect that this doesn't scale well in human terms as we've encountered a LOT of trouble trying to get…

I notice that none of the examples in your blog entry on functional C# deals with error handling. I know that is not the point of your article, but that is actually one of my key issues with C# and its reliance on implicit, because like so many other parts of C# you'd probably hand it over to an exeception handler. I'd much rather prefer you to deal with it explicitly right where it happens, and I would prefer if you were actually forced to do it for examples like yours. This is because implicit error handling is hard. I have no doubt you do it well, but it is frankly rare to meet a C# developer who has as much of an understanding on the language that you clearly have.

I think this is an excellent blog post by the way. My issues with C# (and this applies to a lot of other GC languages) is that most developers would learn a lot from your article. Because none of it is an intuitive part of the language philosophy.

I don't think you should never use OOP or abstractions. I don't think there is a golden rule for when you should use either. I do think you need to understand why you are doing it though, and C# sort of makes people go to abstractions first, not last in my experience. I don't think these changes to the GC is going to help people who write C# without understanding C#, which is frankly most C# developers around here. Because Go is opinionated and explicit it's simply an issue I have to deal with less in Go teams. It's not an issue I have to deal with less in Python teams, but then, everyone who loves Python knows it sucks.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#142

Post by badhombres »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #107
badhombres wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trade offs are though that patterns and behind the scenes source code generation is another layer that the devs who have to follow need to deal with when debugging and understanding why something isn’t working. They either spend more time understanding the bespoke things or are bottle necked relying on a team or person to help them get through those moments. It’s a trade off and one that has bit me and others bef…

Would you rather a team move faster and be more productive or be a purist and disallow abstractions to avoid some potential runtime tracing challenges which can be mitigated with good use of OTEL and logging? I don't know about you, but I'm going to bias towards productivity and use integration tests + observability to safeguard code.

Disallow bespoke abstractions and use the industry standard ones instead. People who make abstractions inflate how productive they’re making everyone else. Your user base is much smaller than popular libs, so your docs and abstractions are not as battle tested and easy to use as much as you think.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#143

Post by whizzter »

pjmlp wrote: post #99
whizzter wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if it did take off, classic Wasm semantics were horrible since you needed a lot of language support to even have simple cludges when referring to DOM objects via indices and extra lifeness checking. WASM-GC will remove a lot of those and make quite a few languages possible as almost first-class DOM manipulating languages (there's still be cludges as the objects are opaque but they'll be far le…

All great and dandy, except tooling still sucks. You still need to usually install plenty of moving pieces to produce a wasm file out of the "place language here", write boilerplate initialisation code, debugging is miserable, only for a few folks to avoid writing JavaScript.

There will always be enthusiasts to take the initial steps, the question is if they have the taste to make it a coherent system that isn't horrible to use.

Counted out over N languages, we should see something decent land before long.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#144

Post by ivm »

realusername wrote: post #136
ivm wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It simply can't use it because it does not use native UIs, but instead mimics them with its own rendering engine. This approach worked to some extent during the flat minimalist era, but now that Apple has added so many new animations and transitions, reproducing them all has become close to impossible. At best, Flutter can implement some shaders for the glass'y look of the controls, but something as basic as the Liqu…

Not a single user cares about "native ui", it's only a debate among developers. Take the top 20 apps people are using, all of them use their own design system which isn't native. Flutter will always have multiple advantages against React Native (and even Native toolkits themselves) in terms of upgradability, you can do 6 months of updates with only 30mins of work and make sure it 100% works everywhere. The quality of…

Classic HN comment with unapologetic statements. If Flutter were that good, it wouldn't have flatlined so fast after the initial hype a few years ago. I tried it last year, only to see rendering glitches in the sample project.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#145

Post by Rohansi »

Nullabillity wrote: post #67
adzm wrote: post #27

A hobby audio and text analysis application I've written, with no specific concern for low level performance other than algorithmically, runs 4x as fast in .net10 vs .net8. Pretty much every optimization discussed here applies to that app. Great work, kudos to the dotnet team. C# is, imo, the best cross platform GC language. I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of performance, features, ecosyste…

> I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of [...] developer experience. Of all the languages that I have to touch professionally, C# feels by far the most opaque and unusable. Documentation tends to be somewhere between nonexistant and useless, and MSDN's navigation feels like it was designed by a sadist. (My gold standard would be Rustdoc or Scala 2.13 era Scaladoc, but even Javadoc has been.. fi…

I almost exclusively work in C# and have never experienced the Roslyn crashes you mentioned. I am using either Rider or Visual Studio though.

> Like cross-project "go-to-definition" takes me to either a list of members or a decompiled listing of source code, even when I have the actual source code right there!

If these are projects you have in the same solution then it should never do this. I would only expect this to happen if either symbol files or source files are missing.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#147

Post by bob1029 »

adzm wrote: post #27

A hobby audio and text analysis application I've written, with no specific concern for low level performance other than algorithmically, runs 4x as fast in .net10 vs .net8. Pretty much every optimization discussed here applies to that app. Great work, kudos to the dotnet team. C# is, imo, the best cross platform GC language. I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of performance, features, ecosyste…

> I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of performance, features, ecosystem, developer experience.

This is also why I prefer to use Unity over all other engines by an incredible margin. The productivity gains of using a mature C# scripting ecosystem in a tight editor loop are shocking compared to the competition. Other engines do offer C# support, but if I had to make something profitable to save my own standard of living the choice is obvious.

There's only two vendors that offer built-in SIMD accelerated linear math libraries capable of generating projection matrices out of the box. One is Microsoft and the other is Apple. The benefits of having stuff like this baked into your ecosystem are very hard to overstate. The amount of time you could waste looking for and troubleshooting primitives like this can easily kill an otherwise perfect vision.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#148

Post by realusername »

ivm wrote: post #144
realusername wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single user cares about "native ui", it's only a debate among developers. Take the top 20 apps people are using, all of them use their own design system which isn't native. Flutter will always have multiple advantages against React Native (and even Native toolkits themselves) in terms of upgradability, you can do 6 months of updates with only 30mins of work and make sure it 100% works everywhere. The quality of…

Classic HN comment with unapologetic statements. If Flutter were that good, it wouldn't have flatlined so fast after the initial hype a few years ago. I tried it last year, only to see rendering glitches in the sample project.

Not everything is related to tech, in my company for example, they picked React Native because they have the ability to tap into the front-end job market (or they think they do), certainly not for it's intrisic qualities.

Personally I've done a 50k+ line project in Flutter and I didn't hit any of these. There's been a few issues for sure but nowhere near what I experienced with React Native (and don't start me on native itself)

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#149

Post by 5ersi »

adzm wrote: post #27

A hobby audio and text analysis application I've written, with no specific concern for low level performance other than algorithmically, runs 4x as fast in .net10 vs .net8. Pretty much every optimization discussed here applies to that app. Great work, kudos to the dotnet team. C# is, imo, the best cross platform GC language. I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of performance, features, ecosyste…

Java?

Is supported on more platforms, has more developers, more jobs, more OSS projects, is more widely used (Tiobe 2024). Performance was historically better, but c# caught up.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#150

Post by OtomotO »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #134
hu3 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much faster are we talking? Because you'd have to account for the time lost debugging annotations.

What are you working on that you're debugging annotations everyday? I'd say you've made a big mistake if you're doing that/you didn't read the docs and don't understand how to use the attribute. (Of course you are also free to write C# without any of the built in frameworks and write purely explicit handling and routing) On the other hand, we write CRUD every day so anything that saves repetition with CRUD is a gain.

I don't debug them every day, but when I do, it takes days for a nasty bug to be worked out.

Yes, they make CRUD stuff very easy and convenient.

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