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What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

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Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#91

Post by badhombres »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #74
OtomotO wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am paid to work in Java and C# among Go, Rust, Kotlin, Scala and I wholeheartedly agree. I hate the implicitness of Spring Boot, Quarkus etc. as much as the one in C# projects. All these magic annotations that save you a few lines of code until they don't, because you get runtime errors due to incompatible annotations. And then it takes digging through pages of docs or even reporting bugs on repos instead of just f…

I disagree on this. I am at a (YC, series C) startup that just recently made the switch from TS backend on Nest.js to C# .NET Web API[0]. It's been a progression from Express -> Nest.js -> C#. What we find is that having attributes in both Nest.js (decorators) and C# allows one part of the team to move faster and another smaller part of the team to isolate complexity. The indirection and abstraction are explicit deci…

The trade offs are though that patterns and behind the scenes source code generation is another layer that the devs who have to follow need to deal with when debugging and understanding why something isn’t working. They either spend more time understanding the bespoke things or are bottle necked relying on a team or person to help them get through those moments. It’s a trade off and one that has bit me and others before

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#93

Post by whizzter »

Rohansi wrote: post #32
highwaylights wrote: post #6

Very mixed feelings about this as there’s a strong case for the decisions made here but it also moves .NET further away from WASMGC, which makes using it in the client a complete non-starter for whole categories of web apps. It’s a missed opportunity and I can’t help but feel that if the .NET team had gotten more involved in the proposals early on then C# in the browser could have been much more viable.

.NET was already incompatible with WASM GC from the start [1]. The changes in .NET 10 are nothing in comparison to those. AFAIK WASM GC was designed with only JavaScript in mind so that's what everyone is stuck with. [1] https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/94420

There's 2 things,

1: JavaScript _interoperability_ , ie same heap but incompatible objects (nobody is doing static JS)

2: Java, Schemes and many other GC derived languages ,etc have more "pure" GC models, C# traded some of it for practicality and that would've required some complications to the regular JS GC's.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#94

Post by osigurdson »

mrsmrtss wrote: post #77
debugnik wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attributes and reflection are still used in C# for source generators, JSON serialization, ASP.NET routing, dependency injection... The amount of code that can fail at runtime because of reflection has probably increased in modern C#. (Not from C# source generators of course, but those only made interop even worse for F#-ers).

Don't we have automated tests for catching this kind of things or is everyone only YOLOing in nowadays? Serialization, routing, etc can fail at runtime regardless of using or not using attributes or reflection.

Ease of comprehension is more important than tests for preventing bugs. A highly testable DI nightmare will have more bugs than a simple system that people can understand just by looking at it.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#95

Post by whizzter »

pjmlp wrote: post #21
highwaylights wrote: post #6

Very mixed feelings about this as there’s a strong case for the decisions made here but it also moves .NET further away from WASMGC, which makes using it in the client a complete non-starter for whole categories of web apps. It’s a missed opportunity and I can’t help but feel that if the .NET team had gotten more involved in the proposals early on then C# in the browser could have been much more viable.

Webassembly taking off on the browser is wishful thinking. There are a couple unicorns like Figma and that is it. Performance is much better option with WebGPU compute, and not everyone hates JavaScript. Whereas on the server it is basically a bunch of companies trying to replicate application servers, been there done that.

I wouldn't be surprised if it did take off, classic Wasm semantics were horrible since you needed a lot of language support to even have simple cludges when referring to DOM objects via indices and extra lifeness checking.

WASM-GC will remove a lot of those and make quite a few languages possible as almost first-class DOM manipulating languages (there's still be cludges as the objects are opaque but they'll be far less bad since they can at least avoid external ID mappings and dual-GC systems that'll behave leakily like old IE ref-counts did).

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#96

Post by hahn-kev »

dgllghr wrote: post #55

I am considering dotnet Maui for a project. On the one hand, I am worried about committing to the Microsoft ecosystem where projects like Maui have been killed in the past and Microsoft has a lot of control. Also XML… On the other hand, I’ve been seeing so many impressive technical things about dotnet itself. Has anyone here used Maui and wants to comment on their experience?

I would say it really depends on your target. If you want only mobile, then there's different option's (see other comments). But if you want only desktop then Avilonia is good. However if you want both (like my team) then we did end up going for MAUI. However we use MAUI Blazor as we also want to run on a server. We're finding iOS to be difficult to target but I don't think that has anything to do with MAUI.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#97

Post by [deleted] »

pjmlp wrote: post #76
OtomotO wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am paid to work in Java and C# among Go, Rust, Kotlin, Scala and I wholeheartedly agree. I hate the implicitness of Spring Boot, Quarkus etc. as much as the one in C# projects. All these magic annotations that save you a few lines of code until they don't, because you get runtime errors due to incompatible annotations. And then it takes digging through pages of docs or even reporting bugs on repos instead of just f…

As polyglot developer, I also disagree. If I wanted explicitness for every little detail I would keep writing in Assembly like in the Z80, 80x86, 68000 days. Unfortunately we never got Lisp or Smalltalk mainstream, so we got to metaprogramming with what is available, and it is quite powerful when taken advantage of. Some people avoid wizard jobs, others avoid jobs where magic is looked down upon. I would also add tha…

[deleted]

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#98

Post by ivm »

maxlb wrote: post #73
dgllghr wrote: post #55

I am considering dotnet Maui for a project. On the one hand, I am worried about committing to the Microsoft ecosystem where projects like Maui have been killed in the past and Microsoft has a lot of control. Also XML… On the other hand, I’ve been seeing so many impressive technical things about dotnet itself. Has anyone here used Maui and wants to comment on their experience?

I've been a C# developer my entire career and spent a few years building apps with Xamarin/Uno. At my current company, we evaluated MAUI and Flutter for our mobile app rewrite (1M+ monthly active users). We first built a proof of concept with 15 basic tasks to implement in both MAUI and Flutter. Things like authentication, navigation, API calls, localization, lists, map, etc. In MAUI, everything felt heavier than it…

Aside from using an esoteric language and being a Google product with a risk of shutting down just because, Flutter's game-like UI rendering on a canvas was confirmed to be quite a questionable approach with the whole Liquid Glass transition. If anything, React Native is a more reliable choice: endless supply of React devs and native UI binding similar to MAUI.

I'd say Uno Platform[0] is a better alternative to Flutter for those who do not care much about the native look: it replicates WinUI API on iOS, Mac, Android, and Linux, while also providing access to the whole mature .NET ecosystem – something Flutter can't match for being so new and niche.

[0]: https://platform.uno/

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#99

Post by pjmlp »

whizzter wrote: post #95
pjmlp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Webassembly taking off on the browser is wishful thinking. There are a couple unicorns like Figma and that is it. Performance is much better option with WebGPU compute, and not everyone hates JavaScript. Whereas on the server it is basically a bunch of companies trying to replicate application servers, been there done that.

I wouldn't be surprised if it did take off, classic Wasm semantics were horrible since you needed a lot of language support to even have simple cludges when referring to DOM objects via indices and extra lifeness checking. WASM-GC will remove a lot of those and make quite a few languages possible as almost first-class DOM manipulating languages (there's still be cludges as the objects are opaque but they'll be far le…

All great and dandy, except tooling still sucks.

You still need to usually install plenty of moving pieces to produce a wasm file out of the "place language here", write boilerplate initialisation code, debugging is miserable, only for a few folks to avoid writing JavaScript.

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