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What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

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Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#21

Post by pjmlp »

highwaylights wrote: post #6

Very mixed feelings about this as there’s a strong case for the decisions made here but it also moves .NET further away from WASMGC, which makes using it in the client a complete non-starter for whole categories of web apps. It’s a missed opportunity and I can’t help but feel that if the .NET team had gotten more involved in the proposals early on then C# in the browser could have been much more viable.

Webassembly taking off on the browser is wishful thinking.

There are a couple unicorns like Figma and that is it.

Performance is much better option with WebGPU compute, and not everyone hates JavaScript.

Whereas on the server it is basically a bunch of companies trying to replicate application servers, been there done that.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#23

Post by magicalhippo »

cake-rusk wrote: post #12
Krutonium wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...Were you not before?

IIRC the EULA forbids it. This is why you don't see .net v/s Java GC comparisons for example.

I seem to vaguely recall such a thing from way back in the early days, but the only copy[1] of the .Net Framework EULA I could readily find says it's OK as long as you publish all the details.

[1]: https://docs.oracle.com/en/industries/food-beverage/micros-w...

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#24

Post by jfyi »

rezonant wrote: post #14
cake-rusk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the EULA forbids it. This is why you don't see .net v/s Java GC comparisons for example.

I can't find mention of anything resembling this. The .NET runtime is under the MIT license.

https://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/visual%20s...

It's because you aren't looking at 20 year old EULA's

>3.4 Benchmark Testing. The Software may contain the Microsoft .NET Framework. You may not disclose the results of any benchmark test of the .NET Framework component of the Software to any third party without Microsoft’s prior written approval.

This person is not likely familiar with the history of the .net framework and .net core because they decided a long time ago they were never going to use it.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#25

Post by Kwpolska »

highwaylights wrote: post #6

Very mixed feelings about this as there’s a strong case for the decisions made here but it also moves .NET further away from WASMGC, which makes using it in the client a complete non-starter for whole categories of web apps. It’s a missed opportunity and I can’t help but feel that if the .NET team had gotten more involved in the proposals early on then C# in the browser could have been much more viable.

Those changes affect the .NET runtime, designed for real computers. This does not preclude the existence of a special runtime designed for Wasm with WasmGC support.

The .NET team appears to be aware of WasmGC [0], and they have provided their remarks when WasmGC was being designed [1].

[0] https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/94420

[1] https://github.com/WebAssembly/gc/issues/77

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#26

Post by cake-rusk »

jfyi wrote: post #24
rezonant wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find mention of anything resembling this. The .NET runtime is under the MIT license.

https://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/visual%20s... It's because you aren't looking at 20 year old EULA's >3.4 Benchmark Testing. The Software may contain the Microsoft .NET Framework. You may not disclose the results of any benchmark test of the .NET Framework component of the Software to any third party without Microsoft’s prior written approval. This person is not likely familiar with the history of th…

Yeah, you got me there. I have moved on to Linux development since then. Haven't kept up with Microsoft developer tools.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#27

Post by adzm »

A hobby audio and text analysis application I've written, with no specific concern for low level performance other than algorithmically, runs 4x as fast in .net10 vs .net8. Pretty much every optimization discussed here applies to that app. Great work, kudos to the dotnet team. C# is, imo, the best cross platform GC language. I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of performance, features, ecosystem, developer experience.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#28

Post by adzm »

dtech wrote: post #3

Interesting, I mostly work in JVM, and am always impressed how much more advanced feature-wise the .NET runtime is. Won't this potentially cause stack overflows in programs that ran fine in older versions though?

> Won't this potentially cause stack overflows in programs that ran fine in older versions though?

That's certainly a possibility, and one that's come up before even between .net framework things migrated to .net core. Though usually it's a sign that something is awry in the first place. Thankfully the default stack sizes can be overridden with config or environment variables.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#29

Post by adzm »

cake-rusk wrote: post #26
jfyi wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/visual%20s... It's because you aren't looking at 20 year old EULA's >3.4 Benchmark Testing. The Software may contain the Microsoft .NET Framework. You may not disclose the results of any benchmark test of the .NET Framework component of the Software to any third party without Microsoft’s prior written approval. This person is not likely familiar with the history of th…

Yeah, you got me there. I have moved on to Linux development since then. Haven't kept up with Microsoft developer tools.

.net core on Linux works great btw.

Re: What .NET 10 GC changes mean for developers

#30

Post by pjmlp »

elmigranto wrote: post #11

Use managed language, it will handle memory stuff for you, you don’t have to care. But also read these 400 articles to understand our GC. If you are lucky, we will let you change 3 settings.

Dr. Dobbs and The C/C++ Users Journal archives are full of articles and ads for special memory allocators, because the ones on the standard library for C or C++ also don't work in many cases, they are only good enough as general purpose allocation.
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