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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#711

Post by parineum »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #656
FridayoLeary wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the situation on October 7. 6000 armed terrorists swarmed across the border of gaza, commiting atrocities the like of which were not even thought to be possible in todays day and age among civilised people. I was never under any illusion of what hamas was and i was still shocked. The political climate in Israel up until that day was trying to help gazas economy and assuming hamas were pragmatic enough not to…

[flagged]

I don't think killing Sinwar means much. Israel definitely wanted him dead but, to their national security, it doesn't mean anything. Sinwar isn't unique and he'd just be replaced by the next guy who wants to do the same thing and also doesn't care if he's made a martyr in the process.

Strategically, they have to destroy the entirety of Hamas and hope the Palestinians are allowed to and do elect better leadership. Anything less is accepting the status quo that led to Oct 7.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#712

Post by SilverElfin »

bawolff wrote: post #698
Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the word "occupying" is doing the heavy lifting here.

How so? There are troops there, The troops are not present with the consent of the local governing powers, the area has not been annexed (has not been integrated into normal civil law of the country with the troops)*. That is a textbook definition of what an occupation is. * except for East Jerusalem, which would normally be considered annexed, but the UNSC has decided (with the binding force of international law) th…

> The troops are not present with the consent of the local governing powers

Are the governing powers legitimate? Hamas banned elections after they won the 2006 election. Why should they be considered any more of a governing powers than Israel? Especially when literally the entire broader region was historically Jewish, long before the modern state of Israel, long before Islamic Arabs (now calling themselves Palestinian) were in the area?

What I see is that the Islamic Arabs in Israel are living peacefully and are integrated into the “normal civil law”. But the residents of Gaza have been pro terrorism - which is why they voted for Hamas on a charter of committing genocide against all other beliefs.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#713

Post by huevosabio »

holmesworcester wrote: post #660
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary st…

> A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights.

100%

The most basic principle in democratic government is that those subject to the monopoly of violence should also have a voice in how that violence is managed.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#714

Post by rozab »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #367
yibg wrote: post #290

It's wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad things happen" to justify the situation. Weird that it needs to be said, but this is why war crimes are a thing. Just because it's an armed conflict, doesn't mean anything goes.

> wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad things happen" to justify the situation The point is to distinguish this war from how others have been fought. A lot of accusations against the IDF's conduct have been baseless. Not wrong in that they're factually incorrect. Just wrong in that it's how everyone else fights wars when they go to war. This is different. America didn't trigger a famine in Iraq or A…

The US-led sanctions regime against Iraq in the 90s did lead to high rates of malnutrition and excess deaths, with Madeleine Albright publicly insisting that half a million dead children would be 'worth it'.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#716

Post by jameshilliard »

tdeck wrote: post #642
jameshilliard wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their strategy is and has been for decades to kill as many Palestinians as possible. This is just obviously false, Israel obviously has the military capability to kill effectively every Palestinian in Gaza, and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there.

It's more accurate to say "as many Palestinians as they thought the US would let them get away with". This is why each new kind of atrocity was first messaged and checked with the US before proceeding. Without cover in the UN and unlimited bombs from the US Israel's actions in Gaza would not have been possible. Folks may remember when Israel thought they had to cook up a bunch of fancy 3D renders of a "Hamas command…

> It's more accurate to say "as many Palestinians as they thought the US would let them get away with". This is why each new kind of atrocity was first messaged and checked with the US before proceeding. Without cover in the UN and unlimited bombs from the US Israel's actions in Gaza would not have been possible.

Israel makes far more efforts than even the US when it comes to trying to prevent civilian casualties.

> Folks may remember when Israel thought they had to cook up a bunch of fancy 3D renders of a "Hamas command center" and do a multi-week propaganda blitz before attacking Al Shifa hospital. Then they eventually realized that the Biden administration didn't care, nor did they care about the lack of evidence for this supposed massive complex [1] after the fact. So they could bomb hospitals with just a generic justification after the fact.

There's plenty of evidence Hamas used Al Shifa for military purposes, although it's maybe somewhat unclear to what extent exactly. Also from my understanding Israel didn't bomb Al Shifa, they raided it instead.

> It was the same with every escalation, from murdering UN aid workers to dropping 2,000lb bombs on tents to completely flattening cities they had designated as "safe zones".

The entire Gaza strip is a war zone, Israel largely tries to avoid combat operations in the al-Mawasi humanitarian zone but that doesn't mean Hamas has complete immunity there[0].

> [1] It turned out to just be a couple hospital rooms that a former Israeli PM admitted they themselves had built.

Regardless of who built the bunker under the hospital if Hamas uses it for military purposes that makes the hospital a valid military target. I'm not sure how a bunker having been built by Israel decades ago would make a difference in regards to it being a valid military target or not.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_July_2024_al-Mawasi_attack

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#717

Post by toast0 »

ashdksnndck wrote: post #704
toast0 wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? What they're doing doesn't seem to be working, so maybe something else. This is just armchair military philosophizing, but after the October attack, go ahead and do some big disproportionate response stuff for 30-90 days, then a ceasefire and prisoner exchange (this happened). But if the ceasefire doesn't work out, you can't go ba…

> Alternately, big problems require big solutions. Forcibly return Gaza to Egyptian control, as it was before the Six Day War, and encourage Egypt to deal with Hamas through diplomacy and response to future attacks from within Gaza as if they were from Egypt. This sounds kind of like the proposed peace plan, no? They’re supposedly going to put an Arab force in charge of Gaza.

I don't know what the proposed peace plan is? I saw a lot of articles declaring there was one, but I couldn't find it published anywhere?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#718

Post by jameshilliard »

lupire wrote: post #341
jameshilliard wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this didn't start in 2023. Gaza has been under Israeli blockade for decades. The blockade was also imposed by Egypt[0] and Hamas certainly provided no shortage of security related justifications for the blockade. Unfortunately those security concerns turned out to be accurate[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_7_attacks

The October 7 attacks only succeeded because Netanyahu opened the military border to let them in.

> The October 7 attacks only succeeded because Netanyahu opened the military border to let them in.

Do you also believe 9/11 was an inside job? Both claims are IMO equally unrealistic.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#719

Post by ropable »

The situation in Gaza is horrifying and despair-inducing. While acknowledging the incredibly complex historical context of the region and the security bind that Israel is in, IMO they have surrendered all moral authority by their actions there. The military campaign and blockade of aid into Gaza is wildly disproportionate and monstrous.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#720

Post by tguvot »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #650
YZF wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agr…

> what would you do if you're Israel? Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.

in this case they divert more desirable goods that they sell and make aid agencies pay protection money for "securing shipments".

as example, there was a story on Israeli news a couple of months ago, about some NGO that setup a new aid distribution network. One day they got some of their people killed in Gaza and received a phone call demanding payment "or else"

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