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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#691

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

A big question for me continues to be how much of Israel's behavior isn't really about best options for Israel as a state, but power politics for particular political factions internally.

but that's how every polity operates, you can't influence it more than people already try to influence it.

you can ask the same of Hamas, is theirs the policy the populace wants?

Israel does have a robust free speech democracy and you can easily learn what many of the different factions think, and like elections anywhere, you don't know till afterward how it plays out, and voters are always disappointed by the way power is exercised.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#692
post #645

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agr…

> So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza?

What they're doing doesn't seem to be working, so maybe something else.

This is just armchair military philosophizing, but after the October attack, go ahead and do some big disproportionate response stuff for 30-90 days, then a ceasefire and prisoner exchange (this happened). But if the ceasefire doesn't work out, you can't go back to disproportionate response on the October attack; that doesn't look reasonable. Cat and mouse strikes on leadership until the hostages are released (edit: but not while leaders are gathered for peace negotiations!). You can still do proportionate response for any tit-for-tat kind of attacks in the occupied zone.

A war of occupation is a PR thing. You need to convince outside observers you're occupation is reasonable --- two years of disproportionate response doesn't do that. You also want to convince the occupied people not to support armed resistance; disproportionate response can work for that, but IMHO not over a long period of time; in the short term, it can get people to demand a stop to fighting, but after two years, again IMHO it just breeds more desire to fight.

You also need some sort of plan for after the hostilities end. How do you set the conditions so this is less likely to happen in the future. Really, the best way to have peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine as two states is for Israel and Palestine to both be prosperous; Israel needs to help make that happen, because it's in Israel's interests --- even if maybe it doesn't feel like it; a prosperous Palestine will be incentivized to be peaceful because prosperity is tenuous; a destitute Palestine has no need to be peaceful, because it has nothing to lose.

There's a lot of talk about ending Hamas; maybe that would do it, but if Hamas disbands today, you need something to replace the government services they provide. What's the plan for that? What would the interim system look like between now and that; can you enforce the interim system now as a way to push Hamas out?

Alternately, big problems require big solutions. Forcibly return Gaza to Egyptian control, as it was before the Six Day War, and encourage Egypt to deal with Hamas through diplomacy and response to future attacks from within Gaza as if they were from Egypt.

Perhaps return the West Bank to Jordan ... maybe do the return of the West Bank first as a show of 'if y'all give us the hostages, we'll end the occupation' Returning the West Bank is hard, because you've got to figure out what to do with the settlers, which is probably a lot of tricky negotiations over which settlements can be kept with a land swap and which have to be abandoned, so it probably can't be done super fast.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Israel fully controls USA (especially this administration) This is the political equivalent of Flat Eartherism. The 'Earth is a perfect sphere' take would be that there are significant numbers of Americans for whom Israel is a single-issue item, and significantly more for whom it's a top three. These voters can swing elections in Pennsylvania, Arizona, Georgia and possibly Michigan, and so are given a lot of defere…

yea, lets go with that, definitely we are involved in a genocide because of 7 voters in arizona.

additionally, neither party’s candidate can dare be “anti” israel so this is an election issue as much as … don’t even have a witty comparison for this :)

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#694
The first question that should be asked is this: if there is indeed so much suffering in Gaza, why is no one pressuring Hamas to end the war by accepting Donald Trump’s peace plan? The war could have been over by now if Hamas had surrendered, yet this point is rarely mentioned. Why is that?

Instead, many—including major Western media outlets—repeat Hamas’ narrative: that Israel is responsible for the killing (while Hamas has been accused of using human shields [0]) and that Israel prevents the UN from distributing aid (even though the UN is said to be heavily infiltrated by Hamas [1], and the GHF was established to restrict Hamas’ access to food supplies and prevent profiteering through resale [2]).

Furthermore, if starvation in Gaza is a pressing reality, why does the UN refuse to distribute food directly [4]? In fact, the claim that there is a famine going on just doesn't match the numbers [5], and UN-linked IPC finds no mortality data to prove famine is present, despite their very intention of proving so [6], and media was found to misrepresent the situation on the ground [7]

Finally, little attention is given to Egypt’s role in maintaining the blockade of Gaza, which also contributes to "famine". Egypt does not allow Gazans—who are described by some as facing genocide—to cross its border to escape [3]. It often seems as though those who argue that starvation is being deliberately inflicted prefer to keep the situation unchanged, only to place the blame on Israel.

0: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admi...

1: https://govextra.gov.il/unrwa/unrwa/

2: https://www.aipac.org/resources/gaza-aid

3: https://theconversation.com/why-egypt-refuses-to-open-its-bo...

4: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/07/24/un-refuses-to-cooper...

5: https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1966495888051761582

6: https://www.timesofisrael.com/key-food-security-org-finds-no...

7: https://honestreporting.com/famine-standard-was-lowered-for-...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary st…

International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions. Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous c…

Well the word "occupying" is doing the heavy lifting here.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#696

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

> the US is slowly distancing itself. Public opinion in the US has turned against Israel, yes. Trump doesn't care about public opinion. He'll be buddy-buddy to Netanyahu other than symbolic acts of distancing / reprimanding.

Trump is also "buddy-buddy" with a lot of the Gulf States, in fact, he probably likes them more because they have more money to give him. If Israel does something they don't like, such as bomb Qatar, Trump can swing against Israel.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#697
post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agr…

So criticism is hate? I'm Jewish does that mean I am hateful when I am critical of the actions of the Israeli government? Are you claiming none of the critism is legitimate and its all hate? Is criticism of Israel antisemetic? Because last I checked Israel is not a religion.

Just like in the US people will call you anti-American if you disagree with the policies of the government.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions. Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous c…

Well the word "occupying" is doing the heavy lifting here.

How so?

There are troops there, The troops are not present with the consent of the local governing powers, the area has not been annexed (has not been integrated into normal civil law of the country with the troops)*.

That is a textbook definition of what an occupation is.

* except for East Jerusalem, which would normally be considered annexed, but the UNSC has decided (with the binding force of international law) that it is de jure occupied. However Palestinians in east Juruselum can apply for citizenship and get voting rights.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a gen…

> They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power How did they "neuter" Iran? Iran responded quickly and managed to heavily damage TelAviv and is now rushing to accelerate rebuilding their nuclear capabilities. If anything, the previous operation was a disaster, it allowed to regime to entrench itself even further in IRAN and regime change that they were hoping for didn't happen. I'm sure both I…

Iran's air force is NG, can't compete with Israel:

https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/irans-air-force-is-start...

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