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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#641

Post by JumpCrisscross »

churchill wrote: post #637
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a gen…

You may not realize it but Israel is slowly becoming Rhodesia/Apartheid South Africa. And i don't mean the word 'apartheid' as a cudgel. During the Rhodesian Bush War, their forces ran circles around the ZIPRA and ZANLA with multiple battles and encounters where they'd routinely record 500:1 KD ratios like Operation Dingo, etc. They had complete freedom of action to bomb any infrastructure obstructing them, reach dee…

> Cutting off that source of FX would literally half the economy overnight because cash would stop sloshing around internally from its main sources

My point is this isn't a realistic threat for Israel. Its exports are highly desirable to too many parties. Technology. Weapons. Energy. There is too much money to be made, too much advantage to be had.

Yes, if the war in Gaza continues for another decade, Israel will run out of goodwill. But if it wraps up within a year or two? I don't see anything happening quickly enough that they can't adapt. Apartheid was a permanent state. The war need not be.

> America's voting demographic for the next 40 years has begun to see Israel as a genocidal terrorist state. They will be voting for the next 50 years

I'd say a strategic prerogative for Israel at this point is to diversify away from America. It's unfortunate. But they screwed a golden goose.

For the aforementioned reasons, however, that isn't existential. Particularly given India and China have what they consider to be problematic Muslim populations within and around themselves, too.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#642

Post by tdeck »

jameshilliard wrote: post #627
jayveeone wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Their strategy is and has been for decades to kill as many Palestinians as possible. This is just obviously false, Israel obviously has the military capability to kill effectively every Palestinian in Gaza, and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there.

It's more accurate to say "as many Palestinians as they thought the US would let them get away with". This is why each new kind of atrocity was first messaged and checked with the US before proceeding. Without cover in the UN and unlimited bombs from the US Israel's actions in Gaza would not have been possible.

Folks may remember when Israel thought they had to cook up a bunch of fancy 3D renders of a "Hamas command center" and do a multi-week propaganda blitz before attacking Al Shifa hospital. Then they eventually realized that the Biden administration didn't care, nor did they care about the lack of evidence for this supposed massive complex [1] after the fact. So they could bomb hospitals with just a generic justification after the fact.

It was the same with every escalation, from murdering UN aid workers to dropping 2,000lb bombs on tents to completely flattening cities they had designated as "safe zones".

Israel would push the envelope a bit, see that their key patron didn't care, and push it further. What was once a line they feared to cross became the new normal.

[1] It turned out to just be a couple hospital rooms that a former Israeli PM admitted they themselves had built.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-built-bunker-shifa-hospital-...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#643

Post by JumpCrisscross »

galactus wrote: post #638
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a gen…

Israel an the US are a single entity when it comes to security matters in the middle east. It was already the de facto regional power.

> Israel an the US are a single entity when it comes to security matters in the middle east. It was already the de facto regional power

Not independently. At this point, Israel is independently a de facto regional power. The strike in Doha drove that home. (As did the attacks on Iran, which delivered a geostrategic win to Riyadh that Washington was never able to.)

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#644

Post by FridayoLeary »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Look at the situation on October 7. 6000 armed terrorists swarmed across the border of gaza, commiting atrocities the like of which were not even thought to be possible in todays day and age among civilised people. I was never under any illusion of what hamas was and i was still shocked. The political climate in Israel up until that day was trying to help gazas economy and assuming hamas were pragmatic enough not to seek a war.

But it became clear that not only did they spend their main efforts in the previous few years planning this massacre, but they had embedded themselves as deeply as possible in every single part of gaza as possible. Their tunnel network is more extensive then the London underground. Their bases are in hospitals and schools. Undeniable facts except to the most cynical and dishonest people out there.

But what dismayed me the most was the response of the average palestinian on the street. Ecstatic celebration, i saw videos of crowds literally shrieking and crying for joy, at the single most shameful crime against humanity that was ever committed in their name.

No other country in the world would do anything different in Israels place. Most would go much further. You can express disgust at their actions from your place where you would never have to confront such barbarity. Hamas planned and created the entire situation you just described and left no other course of action for Israel to take. What else should they have done? Don't tell me some stupid idea like make peace with them and stop the settlements etc. Those are grievences entirely made up of anti israel people and does not address the reality of who hamas and far too many palestinians are.

War is horrible. I don't want it. No one wants it. This one is just and necessary. The world can sit and wait or they can help meaningfully.

If you want to argue explain to me how Israelis and any human being should view and respond to the scenes of joy and celebration they saw on and after Oct 7. Even today there is very little remorse or even regret.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#645

Post by YZF »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled.

What sort of adaptation are you proposing?

I do agree Israel is taking a hit on the world stage. This is part of the war and Israel has a hard time defending itself against enemies with vast resources. Those enemies are also more than happy to distract and splinter the western nations with this topic. Russia has a better standing in the world with its war of aggression on Ukraine amongst many other problems. Most western countries who were/are happy to abandon Israel would (and have) respond with significantly more force to a similar attack on themselves.

It remains to be seen what are the longer term consequences here. Not just on Israel.

What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage. It's not that Israel's response has no problems - it has many problems. But the discourse on this is not rational and not fact based. The media and the various actors are pushing agenda and ideology. This isn't unique to Israel here, we see this on political issues, a discourse that is tribal, not rational but rather emotional, manipulated by the media (social and otherwise). CNN here is treating Israel basically as it treats Trump and the republicans. CNN is not in the news business, it is in the shaping political opinion business.

Would you say the west's response to ISIL/ISIS chopping the heads off a few westerners, a couple of random terrorist attacks in the west, and burning a Jordanian pilot alive would also be characterized as "extreme actions against a weak opponent"? How did CNN cover that conflict?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State

- >83k militants killed.

- 10's of thousands civilians killed. (IMO vastly underestimated, one source claims 40k killed just in the battle for Mosul: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%93... )

- millions displaced.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#647

Post by brigandish »

YZF wrote: post #614
sirfz wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has seen more rockets and daily attacks than probably in its entire existance since they commenced the Gaza genocide what are you talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this? The claim is that there are less rockets now, but that article doesn't show anything for 2024 or 2025. There is an article specifically for 2024 that is linked but only shows attacks up till May. Whether that means rockets have stopped, as is the claim, or that they simply haven't been recorded in the Wiki is unknown.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#648

Post by asdefghyk »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #598
asdefghyk wrote: post #498

[flagged]

> Based on logical (to me) probabilities , both sides would be doing "Bad things” This doesn’t make sense from a Bayesian perspective. Israel’s war capacity far outstrips anything Hamas can field by orders of magnitude in every metric. Assigning the uninformative prior here requires a degree of ignorance that is not credible.

I mean "bad things" Hamas has done to their own? people ( Gaza people). Hamas has killed people who criticise it ( or I should say thats whats been reported ) Should also include many where Hamas built their war infrastructure un important (school and hospital ) infrastructure -causing these items to be valid military targets under military law

Must have cost $Billions to build (reported) 500 KM tunnels. Money that was supposed to be spent improving lives of ordinary Gaza people.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#649

Post by asdefghyk »

bigyabai wrote: post #563
asdefghyk wrote: post #498

[flagged]

> And why is there never any posted articles with criticism of Hamas? There definitely is; discussion of the Yemen conflict has been constant on HN. The Israeli criticism of Hamas gets much less coverage because it's less globally important. The consequence of one side or the other "losing" has very little bearing on global affairs. Many of the Israeli articles criticizing Hamas lack impartial corroboration, largely…

I mean "bad things" Hamas has done to their own? people ( Gaza people). Example - Hamas has killed people who criticise it ( or I should say thats whats been reported )

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#650

Post by JumpCrisscross »

YZF wrote: post #645
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agr…

> what would you do if you're Israel?

Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.

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