Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects • Hacker News Board

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#221

Post by ang_cire » Wed, Oct 01, 2025, 10:33 PM UTC

serial_dev wrote: post #201

ang_cire wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every person who does something problematic is actively seeking to do so in order to hurt someone . Also, there are plenty of people who are looking for spaces that are "okay" with their views, and a CoC that makes it clear the space is not can absolutely make them avoid it. You are so focused on the strawman of problematic people being mustache-twirling villains trying to disrupt spaces they dislike, that you're…

> you're discounting the actual purpose of CoCs, which is to make it clear who your space is for Code of conduct is not about that. It's about how to behave. My community is not that special that you need a user manual on how to behave, you should have learned it by age 10, latest. Technology Z meetup / user group is a space for people who are interested in Technology Z. Repository Y is a space for people who are int…

> Code of conduct is not about that. It's about how to behave.

Behavior is who people are. It's the 'content of their character' that MLK spoke of.

> My community is not that special that you need a user manual on how to behave, you should have learned it by age 10, latest.

And yet different communities have vastly different concepts of acceptable behavior. CoCs let people know whether their behavior is acceptable in a community.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#222

Post by shiroiuma » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 2:05 AM UTC

ranger_danger wrote: post #122

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should understand quite how bad your examples are. I understand the examples you gave are given in the best of intentions, but this reads as pure blissful ignorance. PETA literally funded a terrorist convicted of arson. > A page from the 1995 annual tax return (form 990) of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), showing a $45,200 payment for the ``support committee'' of Rodney Coronado, a fel…

Can you provide sources for these claims? > animals as pets This seems to say they are perfectly fine with pets: https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/ > guide dogs Seems to imply they are not against service animals in general: https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/monkeys-arent-pets-... Not trying to defend anyone, just looking for objective evidence.

PeTA murders pet animals that are given to their "shelters", because they don't want people to have pets. They are not "perfectly fine" with pets at all.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#223

Post by EnergyAmy » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 2:51 AM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #220

EnergyAmy wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I directly addressed your statement. "Trans people existing" is a vague statement that avoids talking about specifics. Discourse is toxic because of rhetorical tricks like this where you desperately try to avoid actual discussion.

What would a good faith response look like to you?

Addressing the point. Do you agree or disagree that "trans people existing" is too vague to be meaningful? Alternatively, what exactly do you mean by "existing"?

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#224

Post by ryan_lane » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 3:19 AM UTC

ranger_danger wrote: post #207

ryan_lane wrote: post #183

To the folks that say they won't contribute if there's a CoC: this just proves they're working. If you can't avoid the behavior called out in a CoC, then we don't want you to contribute. Thank you for self-selecting yourself away from us. I dealt with abusive contributors at Wikimedia Foundation for years, and it wasn't until a CoC was added that coordinators were actually empowered to ban those abusive volunteers. C…

False equivalence IMO... you're implying that people who don't want a CoC will actually behave badly, and I don't think that's accurate at all, at least not for the majority. > it wasn't until a CoC was added that coordinators were actually empowered to ban those abusive volunteers IMO that is just bad leadership... they could (and should) have taken action against abusive people regardless.

> you're implying that people who don't want a CoC will actually behave badly, and I don't think that's accurate at all, at least not for the majority

If you fight against a code of conduct, which has a more listed out version of "don't harass people", then you're already acting badly. It's at minimum a red flag. There's very little that should be controversial in a CoC.

> IMO that is just bad leadership... they could (and should) have taken action against abusive people regardless.

It's hard to justify kicking someone out of a community without being able to point to a rule they've broken, which is the entire point of the CoC.

None of us want to have to make these things, or enforce them. We just want to work on projects together. These things exist because shitty people cause problems, and then when we try to eject them, they act like victims. When we set rules up front, then enforce them, it takes part of the problem out of the equation.

It doesn't fully solve the "playing the victim" part, because folks then start claiming they're being selectively targeted, and start pointing out super minor violations often using out of context quotes, but it's impossible to solve for everything.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#225

Post by atoav » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 6:30 AM UTC

justinclift wrote: post #196

atoav wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play in a band. Since we're just 4 people a code of conduct would be ridiculous. What isn't ridiculous however is that a group of people who do some shit together need to be somewhat on the same page what is acceptable and what isn't. You don't need that with just friends, but any project beyond friends needs people to agree on what kind of social space this is meant to be. If you don't talk it out the shittiest pe…

> If a code of conducts contains stuff you are within the bounds of anyways, why would you care it is there? If it would contain stuff you're within bounds of anyways, then it's entirely unneeded. :)

Yes sure, but what I mean here is stuff, that can start interpersonal conflicts. To stay with the band example, different people will have different sensibilties around their equipment and how to respectfully treat it. If everybody does it their way you basically guarantee some sort of clash. The solution is to make a general rule that may seem overly sensitive to that one punk member that throws their gear on a pile, but everybody else is happy and the conflicts are avoided.

What I want to say here, is that a good code of conduct deals with the stuff that is open to interpretation and defines it. So if our punk-bandmate throws the singers gear on a pile we don't have to argue about different definitions of how we expect others gear to be treated.

So it is needed precisely because everybody thinks they are just acting normal and within bounds, even when the majority thinks they are not.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#226

Post by kelseyfrog » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 7:11 AM UTC

EnergyAmy wrote: post #223

kelseyfrog wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would a good faith response look like to you?

Addressing the point. Do you agree or disagree that "trans people existing" is too vague to be meaningful? Alternatively, what exactly do you mean by "existing"?

You misunderstand the exercise. I'm asking for a demonstration, an example of genuine discussion.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#227

Post by ranger_danger » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 7:52 AM UTC

shiroiuma wrote: post #222

ranger_danger wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide sources for these claims? > animals as pets This seems to say they are perfectly fine with pets: https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/ > guide dogs Seems to imply they are not against service animals in general: https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/monkeys-arent-pets-... Not trying to defend anyone, just looking for objective evidence.

PeTA murders pet animals that are given to their "shelters", because they don't want people to have pets. They are not "perfectly fine" with pets at all.

source?

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#228

Post by Doxin » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 10:18 AM UTC

throwaway9917 wrote: post #116

serial_dev wrote: post #5

The thing is that codes of conduct do not help honest actors “regulate” and deal with troublemakers. I used to organize meetups and I visited meetups organized by others who had code of conduct, and I just never understood what they were hoping to achieve with that. If someone behaves poorly, you can point at a document all you want, but it doesn’t help you deal that the problematic individual. A document that you pu…

My experience with a CoC at a meetup was that one day a bunch of people piled on the mailing list for the meetup demanding that the meetup adopt a CoC. The majority of these people were people that either only infrequently showed up, or hadn't ever shown up to the meetup. The CoC they demanded had a bunch of social justice language. When questioned on the mailing list as to the events that had precipitated the demand…

There's definitely a subset of people out there that are using CoCs as a way to install levers in organisations they can pull. I'm not completely burnt on the concept of CoCs but I definitely am very wary about them and the people who insist on them.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#229

Post by notarget137 » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 10:29 AM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #155

notarget137 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It baffles me how much political every aspect of life has become. We can't just talk about things and hold genuine discussion. It always boils down to "us vs. them" standpoint.

What would genuine discussion look like on the topic of trans people existing? I'm not sure I would know how to identify it even if it existed.

You have demonstrated exactly the point I am making.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#230

Post by thrance » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 12:11 PM UTC

wastle wrote: post #210

thrance wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how all these so-called TERFs ally themselves with the most anti-feminist crowd, and finally realize it has absolutely nothing to do with feminism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-critical_feminism#Polit...

That's not true. JK Rowling is a good counterexample to your claim, as are the women who brought the FWS case to the UK's Supreme Court (and won), and as are so many other women whose feminist advocacy involves this topic.

JK Rowling accused Nigel Farage of being too "woke", which suggests multiple interesting facts about her political views:

* She thinks "woke" is a bad word, which would put her on the right.

* She thinks Reform UK is woke, which puts her on the far right.

* She's a very confused person, which I would expect from someone claiming to be a feminist while making her prejudice against an already persecuted minority her whole personality.