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Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

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Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#161

Post by fragmede »

rpdillon wrote: post #124
danaris wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never seen one have this effect. How do you think you would see it? Under normal circumstances, what it would look like from the outside is just...someone not causing friction, because there is a code of conduct. Or someone causing friction, because there isn't one. The former looks identical to someone who would never have caused trouble in the first place, and the latter looks, if not identical, at least ver…

Presumably the code of conduct was introduced to solve a problem. So I'd be interested in hearing about an example of a community that had problems with their social fabric, and then introduced a code of conduct, and then could demonstrate that those issues in their social fabric were addressed.

In the history of the world? Yeah. Anytime you have a communal living space, you're going have to set norms on what constitutes shared community stuff. Is the milk in the fridge George's and no one is allowed to touch it, or do we, as a household, want milk communism and it just goes as shared groceries and we go often enough that there's always milk? There's not a right answer, but it's up to the community to decide what's normal in its culture. People come from different backgrounds, were born in different countries and have totally different expectations as to what constitutes "don't be an asshole". Do you put your elbows on the table? Is slurping your soup a sign of respect or disrespect? What you don't see is people who see a lack of a code of conduct and then just don't join.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#162

Post by veeti »

florkbork wrote: post #66
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

> DHH condemned detailed and strict CoC like the Contributor Covenant as a “trojan horse” that should be purged from projects. ESR went even further, asserting that CoC are nothing more than a “tool for troublemakers” and that the best course of action is to delete them entirely from projects. At this point, in 2025, does anybody seriously doubt that they're a "tool for troublemakers"? A lot of people who would other…

Let's restate your points a bit, but using the words "ethics" rather than CoC. Is publishing an ethical standpoint a "trouble making"? Depends, doesn't it? What if you examine the most common top ethical viewpoints you are aware of. For me, it's loud groups like say, PETA, Extinction Rebellion, etc who are fairly populist. Are they making trouble? Sure. But for whom? Would you personally do what these people are doin…

Extinction Rebellion is actually the perfect example, because they are a bunch of protesters so high on their own farts they think blocking ordinary commuters on electric trains will stop Big Oil [1]. And as you can see from the video, bringing this sort of shithead attitude to actual hard working folx will only backfire on you.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHOr2WH7V1k

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#163

Post by wastle »

kelnos wrote: post #154
wastle wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, typically this issue is focused around spaces like female-only refuges and safe spaces, locker rooms and changing rooms, prisons, sports competitions, and so on. The divisive point being whether males who say they are female should be refused or granted access. That you have chosen to characterise this with wording like "anti-human bias" and "demanding human rights apply" further illustrates my point.

No, that's not the typical focus of the issue, and repeating that over and over won't make it so.

What do you see it as?

In the UK, where I am from, the counter to the trans ideological position tends to be from a feminist-influenced perspective, emphasising women's sex-based rights.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#164

Post by nitwit005 »

weird-eye-issue wrote: post #13
serial_dev wrote: post #5

The thing is that codes of conduct do not help honest actors “regulate” and deal with troublemakers. I used to organize meetups and I visited meetups organized by others who had code of conduct, and I just never understood what they were hoping to achieve with that. If someone behaves poorly, you can point at a document all you want, but it doesn’t help you deal that the problematic individual. A document that you pu…

> And we didn’t even talk about how it is being misused. People would point to these documents to silence and shut out people they don’t like and at the same time tolerate poor behavior that are clearly in violation of code of conduct by people they do like or whose politics or opinions they share. Has it occurred to you that's actually exactly why they exist? :)

If someone files a lawsuit, does it implicitly mean it was filed with good intentions? Sadly, no.

There are people who will attempt to exploit any system.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#165

Post by sc68cal »

skissane wrote: post #139
pjc50 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that falls apart on the actual content. If you have a trans contributor and someone who comes in with trans-eliminationist rhetoric, you can't then turn round and say the trans person is being "inflexible" for refusing to work with them.

Likely more than 50% of the world's population agrees with viewpoints that some would label "trans-eliminationist rhetoric". So if you are saying anyone who ever expresses such viewpoints–even in forums completely unrelated to the project–is barred from contributing to it, you are potentially excluding more than half of contemporary humanity.

Would you feel the same way if it were eliminationist language, but against Jews, or African-Americans, or Irish-Americans, or Men?

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#166

Post by aidenn0 »

ryandrake wrote: post #110
astanm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be covered under the next part of the Ruby CoC: > Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free from personal attacks and disparaging remarks. And anyway, rhetoric which advocates for killing groups of people would be very off-topic for a programming language discussion forum. Unlikely it would come up in conversation except for deliberate trolling.

Holy moly, what kind of open source projects are y'all working on? I don't even understand how these topics could come up in a Pull Request. Are people writing and reviewing code in these projects?

Two ways I've seen it come up:

1. Someone posts something on twitter that someone else finds offensive

2. Someone proposes a CoC rule banning bigots from the community, which raises the question of "who defines who is a bigot"

TFA mentions a third way; a remark at a conference is overheard.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#167

Post by aidenn0 »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #145
skissane wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely more than 50% of the world's population agrees with viewpoints that some would label "trans-eliminationist rhetoric". So if you are saying anyone who ever expresses such viewpoints–even in forums completely unrelated to the project–is barred from contributing to it, you are potentially excluding more than half of contemporary humanity.

A community doesn't exist for "the majority of the world". It exists for its community. If a community doesn't want bigots (as they shouldn't), they absolutely should exclude them.

I just haven't seen CoCs effectively reduce the bigots in a community; they either are toothless, or have teeth and lead to a j'accuse breakdown.

It is a tiny fraction of the people I know and have interacted with over an extended period of time who has not made a remark that could be construed as bigoted.

I have seen moderators called bigots for suspending (instead of banning) someone who made an inappropriate remark.

My wife and I have been accused (behind our back) of misgendering someone when we were using the pronouns that we had privately confirmed she preferred.

If you create a CoC with real teeth, then instead of the BDFL or core team or whatever controlling who is in the community, it's the people in the community who are most interested in accusing people of violating the CoC that have control over who is in the community.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#168

Post by danaris »

ranger_danger wrote: post #148
danaris wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way I see it, the people who would cause friction anyway won't be stopped by a CoC. > And the people who wouldn't cause friction are already behaving so they don't need one. Both correct. By definition, in fact. CoCs are for the people in the middle of those . Who do, in fact, exist.

I think if someone needs to be told to be nice... it's time to grow up. Open source projects are not your mother and we shouldn't have to treat people like children, nor get chastised for having that (IMO very reasonable) stance.

It's not about being "told to be nice".

It's about setting a shared understanding of norms.

It's about whether the kinds of jokes allowed among members are "as raunchy as you please", "polite jokes only," or "none".

It's about whether you're expected to work out differences in private chats, address them in public, or bring them to a moderator.

It's about whether your comments on a code review started by another member have to be addressed by the committer before the review can go forward.

Any time you think the way you do things in the open source project (or any other kind of community) you contribute to or run is The Natural, Obvious Way Everyone Does Things, you're probably wrong, and some other people or projects do things exactly the opposite way and think that's just as natural and obvious.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#170

Post by cyanydeez »

serial_dev wrote: post #5

The thing is that codes of conduct do not help honest actors “regulate” and deal with troublemakers. I used to organize meetups and I visited meetups organized by others who had code of conduct, and I just never understood what they were hoping to achieve with that. If someone behaves poorly, you can point at a document all you want, but it doesn’t help you deal that the problematic individual. A document that you pu…

Literally pointing at a real thing is useful. Yes, rules are not logical binary that absolves you of activity but having no basis for decision making other than hind brains is how you enter the current American morass.

Its the agreement to argue about a topic that is struck when you make rules.

Not seeing this is how..niholists proliferats with variohs plicit ordering liks might is right

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