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Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

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Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#51

Post by pjc50 »

astanm wrote: post #16

This, from the Ruby CoC, is key: > Participants are expected to be tolerant of opposing views. If you can't tolerate that others will have different perspectives to you then it means you're likely to be a very difficult and inflexible person to work with.

This is one of those things that falls apart on the actual content. If you have a trans contributor and someone who comes in with trans-eliminationist rhetoric, you can't then turn round and say the trans person is being "inflexible" for refusing to work with them.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#52

Post by serial_dev »

ang_cire wrote: post #38
serial_dev wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> often removes some headaches (...) with some rules, there's less wiggle room ... I understand that's the theory, but in practice, I've never seen it working that way. I don't see how having the CoC affects any of this. If someone is behaving poorly, first of all, a CoC will not deter them. If someone behaves so poorly that you decide you need to remove them, the community (the small portion of people who give a f)…

> If someone is behaving poorly, first of all, a CoC will not deter them I think you mean, "if someone is behaving poorly, the coc did not deter them". The people who it did deter aren't behaving poorly.

I'm just having a hard time imagining someone who wants to be racist sexist xenophobe jerk to other people, but they saw you drafted a CoC last year in the root of your repository, so they won't... Or they were racist sexist xenophobe jerks, then you point out that "our community has a CoC", and they will stop.

None of these things happen in real life.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#53

Post by swiftcoder »

trwcock wrote: post #7

Is programming lame enough yet that we can get away from everything being done by hr and get back to doing cool things with weird people?

It really depends whether "weird people" means people with unusual hobbies/sexualities/clothes/hair/etc, or "weird people" means the ones who want to keep all the first category of people out...

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#54

Post by swiftcoder »

astanm wrote: post #16

This, from the Ruby CoC, is key: > Participants are expected to be tolerant of opposing views. If you can't tolerate that others will have different perspectives to you then it means you're likely to be a very difficult and inflexible person to work with.

Something, something, paradox of tolerance.

Diverse views on software development? Great. Diverse views on whether various groups deserve human rights? Not great.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#55

Post by HelloNurse »

squigz wrote: post #17
serial_dev wrote: post #5

The thing is that codes of conduct do not help honest actors “regulate” and deal with troublemakers. I used to organize meetups and I visited meetups organized by others who had code of conduct, and I just never understood what they were hoping to achieve with that. If someone behaves poorly, you can point at a document all you want, but it doesn’t help you deal that the problematic individual. A document that you pu…

Having something you can point to and say "This is why you're being removed" often removes some headaches. Some people will claim it's unjustified, moderator abuse, etc, if you don't. At least with some rules, there's less wiggle room. Of course, some people are going to respond poorly even with some rules, but it's also not just about the offenders - other community members being able to see there's some logic and r…

Assuming a majority of nice people, explicit rules can be exploited by a few assholes against their "enemies", while trusted human moderators only need to be kept in check with elections.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#56

Post by thrance »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #45
lowsong wrote: post #28

A big part of a CoC that this article, as most discussions on the topic, miss is that they provide a signal to new contributors from marginalized groups, who may have faced abuse or violence in other spaces, that this community will be safe for them to contribute to and - as many anti-CoC folk like to say - get on with the tech. Not having a CoC doesn't mean a project is going to be unsafe to work in. But it means wh…

> to new contributors from marginalized groups, For software projects that are overwhelmingly conducted online the very concept of "marginalized group" is close to irrelevant and meaningless [1]. I think what happens is that some people want to be very, very vocal about whatever "group" they belong to and want to feel offended and oppressed. In recent years, arguments and campaigns against specific technical terms ('…

Do you believe that online harassment is completely made up and never happened to anyone ever? Because it sounds like you do.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#57

Post by ishouldbework »

pjc50 wrote: post #51
astanm wrote: post #16

This, from the Ruby CoC, is key: > Participants are expected to be tolerant of opposing views. If you can't tolerate that others will have different perspectives to you then it means you're likely to be a very difficult and inflexible person to work with.

This is one of those things that falls apart on the actual content. If you have a trans contributor and someone who comes in with trans-eliminationist rhetoric, you can't then turn round and say the trans person is being "inflexible" for refusing to work with them.

[dead]

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#60

Post by weird-eye-issue »

mzhaase wrote: post #42
weird-eye-issue wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we didn’t even talk about how it is being misused. People would point to these documents to silence and shut out people they don’t like and at the same time tolerate poor behavior that are clearly in violation of code of conduct by people they do like or whose politics or opinions they share. Has it occurred to you that's actually exactly why they exist? :)

I have seen multiple CoC being installed with completely good intentions so no.

Have you ever heard the saying about good intentions? And just because you perceive something that way doesn't mean that's the reality
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