As staunch libertarians, I would have thought that Penn and Teller would be against such strong IP protection.
Teller on theft in magic
21–30 of 80 posts
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#22Gerard Bakardy reuploaded his version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkq4XfFgCYs The style couldn't be more different. The "effect" is the same, but the style is light years apart. I don't believe you should be able to copyright an effect, and it's likely he's not even using the same effect. I understand Teller wants to protect an idea he came up with, but I think it's protected simply by the grace and beauty of his…
I understand Teller wants to protect an idea he came up with Given how much Penn & Teller built their careers on exposing the tricks of other magicians who had guarded their secrets for decades (and getting a lot of stage magicians made at the duo), it's pretty ironic for Teller to now decide he wants government protection for a trick of his. Disclaimer: esquire.com is not working for me right now so I haven't read t…
(When Penn & Teller have famously exposed a trick, they've almost always invented a ridiculously poetic method and built the trick around it; by making their art seem more intricate than it is, they force the audience to assume that the rest of their tricks are equally complex. Penn & Teller's exposures are really part of an elaborate con.)
— The article.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
The magician's creed is a lot like an open source license with the restriction of attribution. If attribution is given then copying is considered respectable, whereas if it's not then it's considered theft.
Copying is not considered respectable if attribution is given... The general rule is you are to ask the individual you are copying if you can copy them in which case they will say no unless they sell the trick, or you can argue that you independently came up with the trick, and the person agrees with you. Copying is always considered "theft" even with attribution unless there's specific permission. There is a case wh…
That so many magicians are so possessive of their precious "secrets" and that so many of them are against sharing (even with other magicians), came as rather a big shock and disappointment for me when I got interested in magic.
I spent most of my life in the opensource and academic communities, where free sharing of techniques and knowledge was not only commonplace but encouraged.
It's very sad that much of the magic world is so anti-sharing and so jealously guard the knowledge they possess from each other (unless you can pony up their asking price).
This aspect of parts of the magic community is a huge turn off for me.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#24There's also an interesting parallel with standup comedy. At least here in the UK, the stealing of jokes by mainstream comedians from alternative performers is — while not accepted — viewed by the victims of the theft as just one of those things that happens, something to be ridiculed rather than something that can or should be fought.
I've heard of some comedians resorting to violence when some of their lines were "stolen" by other comics.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#25Just for easy reference, this is a video of Teller's 'Shadow".
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
The magician's creed is a lot like an open source license with the restriction of attribution. If attribution is given then copying is considered respectable, whereas if it's not then it's considered theft.
Copying is not considered respectable if attribution is given... The general rule is you are to ask the individual you are copying if you can copy them in which case they will say no unless they sell the trick, or you can argue that you independently came up with the trick, and the person agrees with you. Copying is always considered "theft" even with attribution unless there's specific permission. There is a case wh…
Well, your explanation assumes that the magician you would get permission from is still alive. Most material used in modern magic was invented decades if not centuries ago.
In today's world, these age-old effects or gimmicks are popularized by various working magicians, some of whom make a name based on them. And once in a while a completely novel approach is invented.
Most new effects are the result of borrowing. A card trick may use a lift invented 100 years ago and a bit of verbal patter similar to something invented last year. The respectful magician will give credit where it's due and will still be respected if he has truly innovated.
If there is true innovation no magician will begrudge him the use of the borrowed elements, unless of course they make up the bulk of the trick.
The magician's creed is closely correlated with the steps needed to gain the respect of other magicians.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Copying is not considered respectable if attribution is given... The general rule is you are to ask the individual you are copying if you can copy them in which case they will say no unless they sell the trick, or you can argue that you independently came up with the trick, and the person agrees with you. Copying is always considered "theft" even with attribution unless there's specific permission. There is a case wh…
That so many magicians are so possessive of their precious "secrets" and that so many of them are against sharing (even with other magicians), came as rather a big shock and disappointment for me when I got interested in magic. I spent most of my life in the opensource and academic communities, where free sharing of techniques and knowledge was not only commonplace but encouraged. It's very sad that much of the magic…
I have spent most of my life in open source communities and understand completely. It's a different way of looking at the value of an idea.
Much of the magic community is a huge turn off to me, but it's an enjoyable hobby that I have a lot of interest in.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Copying is not considered respectable if attribution is given... The general rule is you are to ask the individual you are copying if you can copy them in which case they will say no unless they sell the trick, or you can argue that you independently came up with the trick, and the person agrees with you. Copying is always considered "theft" even with attribution unless there's specific permission. There is a case wh…
That so many magicians are so possessive of their precious "secrets" and that so many of them are against sharing (even with other magicians), came as rather a big shock and disappointment for me when I got interested in magic. I spent most of my life in the opensource and academic communities, where free sharing of techniques and knowledge was not only commonplace but encouraged. It's very sad that much of the magic…
There is a nuance here -- magicians are possessive of someone else taking credit for their idea and do not appreciate someone selling it as their own.
Sort of like the way the BSD license works. However if credit is given and the new effect is sufficiently unique/innovative, then no objection is reasonably made.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Copying is not considered respectable if attribution is given... The general rule is you are to ask the individual you are copying if you can copy them in which case they will say no unless they sell the trick, or you can argue that you independently came up with the trick, and the person agrees with you. Copying is always considered "theft" even with attribution unless there's specific permission. There is a case wh…
Well, your explanation assumes that the magician you would get permission from is still alive. Most material used in modern magic was invented decades if not centuries ago. In today's world, these age-old effects or gimmicks are popularized by various working magicians, some of whom make a name based on them. And once in a while a completely novel approach is invented. Most new effects are the result of borrowing. A…
I am talking specifically about methods created recently. Obviously if a performer is dead and has released their methods then no permission is needed. If they are dead and haven't released their methods, likewise.
You're focusing heavily on borrowed elements from long ago. Sure.. No one cares. However take something from a current performer and it will not be respected.
I do agree that the magician's creed is very much about the steps needed to gain respect of other magicians.
Re: Teller on theft in magic
#30Just for easy reference, this is a video of Teller's 'Shadow". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un1pNtmYguA
I think you should see the real version and not an explanation of the version first. Watching this could ruin the suspense and enjoyment one might find watching the real performance.