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Teller on theft in magic

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Re: Teller on theft in magic

#11

Post by AndyNemmity »

grandalf wrote: post #5
robmil wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the big question, with a universal application: that tension between the fact that knockoffs have a diluting effect on the original, and the idea that if your idea can so readily be copied it's perhaps not worthy of protection.

The magician's creed is a lot like an open source license with the restriction of attribution. If attribution is given then copying is considered respectable, whereas if it's not then it's considered theft.

Copying is not considered respectable if attribution is given...

The general rule is you are to ask the individual you are copying if you can copy them in which case they will say no unless they sell the trick, or you can argue that you independently came up with the trick, and the person agrees with you.

Copying is always considered "theft" even with attribution unless there's specific permission.

There is a case where a performer does magic to the same song (Shape of my heart), but with different actual magic performance and it is considered copying.

*Edited to improve my tone, the person I responded to deserves good faith and seems quite reasonable.

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#12

Post by robmil »

ajross wrote: post #8
robmil wrote: post #2

Especially interesting when viewed in the context of recent patent disputes in the tech world. To hear Teller talk and to hear his performances described conveys that ethereal, intangible quality that "the real thing" has and that knockoffs generally fail to capture — a quality that seems instinctively to be deserving of protection.

If the "knockoffs" can't capture it, why does it need protection? The logic doesn't work there. You could just as easily defend the cynical interpretation that Teller is looking to "defend" (via the monopoly status of his tricks) his quite substantial revenue stream. That doesn't seem so deserving of protection to me.

The argument (which I'm by no means seeking to make) would presumably be that knockoffs don't necessarily have to capture the same spirit as the original in order to devalue the original — and, indeed, the very fact that they don't capture the spirit of the original is what makes their devaluing influence most powerful.

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#13

Post by AndyNemmity »

DigitalJack wrote: post #10
ajross wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the "knockoffs" can't capture it, why does it need protection? The logic doesn't work there. You could just as easily defend the cynical interpretation that Teller is looking to "defend" (via the monopoly status of his tricks) his quite substantial revenue stream. That doesn't seem so deserving of protection to me.

My take on the article was that the fight is against taking something beautiful and magical and making it pedestrian through unartful performance.

Even if the performance was artful he'd be against it, so although that is relevant in the current case, it's not actually meaningful.

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#15

Post by AndyNemmity »

thesash wrote: post #7

What's true for magic is true for tech: "Invention is all fuzzy, sloppy stuff"

It would be funny if copyright in tech was treated like it was in magic.

All of the techie people instead of deriding copyright would instead insult and attack anyone who used any code remotely similar making sure to not stay in the same company of someone who would dare write even a version of a sorting function.

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#16

Post by jlgreco »

AndyNemmity wrote: post #9
danielweber wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand Teller wants to protect an idea he came up with Given how much Penn & Teller built their careers on exposing the tricks of other magicians who had guarded their secrets for decades (and getting a lot of stage magicians made at the duo), it's pretty ironic for Teller to now decide he wants government protection for a trick of his. Disclaimer: esquire.com is not working for me right now so I haven't read t…

I don't agree with you that Penn and Teller built their careers on exposing tricks of other magicians. They do a couple exposures. Cups and Balls, Blast off, and a new escape in their act that you can choose to cover your eyes for or not. Cups and Balls and Blast Off aren't exactly carefully guarded secrets... what are you referring to?

They do several tricks where they pretend to reveal what they are doing, revealing how the trick normally works I think, and then proceed to do something that makes it apparent that is not actually what they are doing.

They have a particularly gory version of sawing a woman in half for example. I think it is on youtube somewhere, pretty solid.

But yeah, I don't think you could say that they reveal tricks that "belong" to other magicians. They reveal the basic stuff.

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#17

Post by thesash »

AndyNemmity wrote: post #15
thesash wrote: post #7

What's true for magic is true for tech: "Invention is all fuzzy, sloppy stuff"

It would be funny if copyright in tech was treated like it was in magic. All of the techie people instead of deriding copyright would instead insult and attack anyone who used any code remotely similar making sure to not stay in the same company of someone who would dare write even a version of a sorting function.

I think the analogue would be design, as opposed to code, see Apple v. Samsung case

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#18

Post by Retric »

danielweber wrote: post #6
AndyNemmity wrote: post #3

Gerard Bakardy reuploaded his version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkq4XfFgCYs The style couldn't be more different. The "effect" is the same, but the style is light years apart. I don't believe you should be able to copyright an effect, and it's likely he's not even using the same effect. I understand Teller wants to protect an idea he came up with, but I think it's protected simply by the grace and beauty of his…

I understand Teller wants to protect an idea he came up with Given how much Penn & Teller built their careers on exposing the tricks of other magicians who had guarded their secrets for decades (and getting a lot of stage magicians made at the duo), it's pretty ironic for Teller to now decide he wants government protection for a trick of his. Disclaimer: esquire.com is not working for me right now so I haven't read t…

I never got the impression that most magicians cared that much for the actual trick. It's a performance art and some of there 'show the magic trick behind clear plastic' is just as interesting as the actual 'trick'. So, I don't know if this is really about protecting tricks as much as preventing bad imitations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_n3Zb3bW3g

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#19

Post by robmil »

There's also an interesting parallel with standup comedy. At least here in the UK, the stealing of jokes by mainstream comedians from alternative performers is — while not accepted — viewed by the victims of the theft as just one of those things that happens, something to be ridiculed rather than something that can or should be fought.

Re: Teller on theft in magic

#20

Post by AndyNemmity »

Retric wrote: post #18
danielweber wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand Teller wants to protect an idea he came up with Given how much Penn & Teller built their careers on exposing the tricks of other magicians who had guarded their secrets for decades (and getting a lot of stage magicians made at the duo), it's pretty ironic for Teller to now decide he wants government protection for a trick of his. Disclaimer: esquire.com is not working for me right now so I haven't read t…

I never got the impression that most magicians cared that much for the actual trick. It's a performance art and some of there 'show the magic trick behind clear plastic' is just as interesting as the actual 'trick'. So, I don't know if this is really about protecting tricks as much as preventing bad imitations. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_n3Zb3bW3g

Magicians care deeply for the actual trick considering it often takes years to develop one trick.
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