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Learn to play Go

online-go.com

111–120 of 159 posts

Re: Learn to play Go

#111

Unfortunately, the early moves in the game ("Joseki") are the most important. They are also the most difficult to learn. It is essential to study these tactics in this website... if only because they are the only "ground truth" known about Go. But for rapid improvement, the only real way forward is to play lots and lots of games to learn how the early game flows. Direction of play, which side of the board is most imp…

> Unfortunately, the early moves in the game ("Joseki") are the most important. They are also the most difficult to learn.... for rapid improvement, the only real way forward is to play lots and lots of games to learn how the early game flows. Direction of play, which side of the board is most important and other such details.

> To put it in perhaps more concrete terms: playing a "tactic" position may net you +10 points across a sequence of 5 moves or so. (IE: One well placed tactical move, and ~4 followup moves may capture 5 enemy stones + 5 territory simultaneously from your opponent). However, every single early-game move is worth nearly +20 points of territory if played correctly. I'm serious.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. "Play lots and lots of games" is the only part I can get behind. I have seen tons of people get well past the beginner stages entirely self-taught and with a focus on fighting because that's the easiest thing to self-teach. A few basic joseki sequences go quite far (especially now that AI analysis has done such promotional work for early 3-3 invasions) and people who try to figure out the rest by intuition generally make smaller mistakes than those who can't read out squeeze sequences or don't understand semeai theory. Of course joseki are important to know, but emphasis on them often leads to a false confidence in having mastered the opening for students who aren't thinking about direction of play or other fuseki issues.

If a tactical sequence appears to net you 10 points against an opponent who is playing correctly, you basically already had those points. (Well, half of the points for most capturing sequences, since they'll usually end in gote; but then you have to consider the opportunity cost of tenuki.) This is as true for capturing sequences as it is for invasions and reductions. Which is why students are counseled to be very conservative in counting frameworks; they are not territory.

If a tactical sequence actually does net 10 points because of your opponent's misplay, that doesn't mean that your moves were only worth 10 points, or even that each move was only worth 10 points. It means that your moves were worth 10 points more than the opponent's were. Similarly, correct early-game moves may be worth a lot of points (compared to passing, the reference value), but most incorrect moves are worth almost as much. Even things that are marked as clear mistakes in a joseki textbook, with clear refutations, might only cost one or two points (although, yes, they can be catastrophic; and of course pros do have to worry about every point). So this is very much an apples and oranges comparison to the "value of moves in the opening".

But also, that value is about 13, definitely not "nearly 20". We know this because even now that we have ferociously strong AI players (who inherently make moves with a higher average value), they still accept a komi of 6.5. And if you ask them to evaluate the first few moves and let some of them be passes and see the change in the score, you'll rarely see 20-point swings in any opening, but you can trivially create such positions (and much larger swings) in middle-game fighting.

> That's why when you watch top-level Go play, there's a lot of "teleporting" across the 19x19 board, searching for the most important positions. And there is also very, very loose play and possible sacrifices / aji. (Maybe its not a true sacrifice, but you'd be willing to sacrifice if the opponent over-extends).

Sure, but 10 kyus can do a reasonable facsimile of this as well. They just have bad timing, or make bad choices about sacrifices, or have wrong ideas about how to use the aji.

Re: Learn to play Go

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t share that sentiment. Yes, at some point when people are somewhat able to take a decent lead home the fuseki becomes important. Before that, beginners really need to understand how to „move“ their stones, how to defend and connect their groups and how to cut and capture. If you see a strong player win against a weak player with a large handicap it always goes down the same way: the strong player places stones…

> Before that, beginners really need to understand how to „move“ their stones, how to defend and connect their groups and how to cut and capture Agreed. Now check the tutorial series. There's no movement. There's no connecting of groups. It is ENTIRELY cutting and capture, and life-and-death puzzles. ----------- https://online-go.com/learn-to-play-go/bl1-stretch/2 Look at this puzzle. WTF is this? The "stretch" ("cor…

> Look at this puzzle. WTF is this?

> The "stretch" ("correct move" according to this tutorial) seems wholly inappropriate compared to 1-point jump, horse-move, diagonal move .... or hell just running in the other direction (to the right, escaping towards the center).

The stretch is good shape here. I can't even tell which keima[0] you have in mind but that makes no sense here. A diagonal also just looks strange, unless you mean hane, which lets opponent cross-cut and will end with losing that stone. Similarly, a 1-point jump (I assume you mean upward) lets opponent wedge in and will end in gote, and running to the right (I assume you mean another 1-point jump) allows opponent to push you around.

The stretch is important here because it prevents opponent's hane, which is very severe. It also threatens to turn and block opponent's expansion decisively, so it may be sente depending on the rest of the board. In general it will make sense to push twice here, then make a one-point jump.

> Or this one is perhaps more egregious. This is simply the wrong direction of play entirely. 20+ point mistake to play the "correct" move here. The correct move is a 2-point jump (or greater) along the 3rd or 4th row northbound.

Per AI, on an empty board, the stretch is about 1 point worse than those jumps (establishing a base); a one-point jump in the same direction of the stretch is about as good as making a base; and best is tenuki. There is simply no urgency to settle those stones without anything else in the area. But stretching or jumping damages Black's shape and limits further expansion of that group. The point is simply to prevent Black's hane there.

Regardless, when they say "correct move", this is not supposed to be about what would be best overall to play in the position. It is supposed to be about a) recognizing the shape and its purpose and b) doing it in a sensible direction. And you really have to learn that sort of thing by example and by physically laying it out, because trying to give the rules for choosing a direction to stretch is harder.

[0] By the way, I'll spot you that Western teachers usually do use English for ikken tobi and kosumi; but "horse-move" is cringe. Most Western players who actually talk about the game will probably know "keima", but you can at least say "knight move".

Re: Learn to play Go

#113

One thing that stood out when I tried to learn and play Go was the tempo. I'm a chess guy, and I like to play blitz with 5+0 and bullet (format equivalent to tik tok) so games tend to be frenetic, but it's quite rare to find a Go game on those formats, they tend to have 40+ min in time. And honestly, this is a big W for Go.

Blitz format is reasonably popular on KGS (once you get to a certain level) usually 10+0. Blitz is harder to find on Pandanet - but you can easily blitz on Fox.

Zero increment blitz go is a terrible idea IMX; people will just play nonsense moves after the game should be ended, and calling a moderator takes time. Go lacks the absolute nature of checkmate.

Re: Learn to play Go

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before that, beginners really need to understand how to „move“ their stones, how to defend and connect their groups and how to cut and capture Agreed. Now check the tutorial series. There's no movement. There's no connecting of groups. It is ENTIRELY cutting and capture, and life-and-death puzzles. ----------- https://online-go.com/learn-to-play-go/bl1-stretch/2 Look at this puzzle. WTF is this? The "stretch" ("cor…

> Look at this puzzle. WTF is this? > The "stretch" ("correct move" according to this tutorial) seems wholly inappropriate compared to 1-point jump, horse-move, diagonal move .... or hell just running in the other direction (to the right, escaping towards the center). The stretch is good shape here. I can't even tell which keima[0] you have in mind but that makes no sense here. A diagonal also just looks strange, unl…

Well, I appreciate the discussion in any case. I'll review the position more.

But this kind of discussion is missing from the tutorial in any regards. This is where I believe I'm stuck in the ~9kyu level and feel like its been mostly about this middle-game movement / direction of play stuff since 15kyu or so.

Re: Learn to play Go

#115
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only one way to find out. If you dislike chess because you don't like abstract total information strategy board games you will not like go. If you dislike chess because - it has too many rules, - the board is too smalll, - the pieces move around too much, or - it doesn't involve adversarial, collaborative construction, or any of the other things that make go different from chess, you have a chance of liking go.

> If you dislike chess because you don't like abstract total information strategy board games you will not like go I think that's why I don't like chess. It seems to me that a winning strategy would be to think as far ahead as possible by enumerating all the permutations. A few heuristics exist however.

> If you dislike chess because you don't like abstract total information strategy board games you will not like go

If you think this is equivalent to the description in GP then you are quite simply incorrect.

If you think it's just the actual reason you personally don't like chess, then I'm not sure why you asked in the first place; of course go is an "abstract total information strategy board game".

Yes, in principle such a game has such an algorithm for perfect play. In practice, computers cannot and do not do that for chess (although they make a reasonable approximation) and approach go quite differently (in much the same way that earlier attempts at computer chess did, before Deep Blue's much more brute-force approach proved effective given enough computing power). Getting AI for go to its current superhuman level involved multiple complete revolutions in how the systems were programmed.

Even Connect Four wasn't strongly solved until 1995, and checkers is only weakly solved and that not until 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game).

Re: Learn to play Go

#116
post #31

I first learned to play Go back in university, but never got very good (it was competing with learning how to program). Many years later, shortly after the war in Ukraine started, I was looking for an activity to share with my 8-year-old son. Life was chaotic then: everyone was anxious, we were hosting a refugee lady, and I could see the stress taking a toll on him. I wanted something where it would be clear we shoul…

That anime is one of my favorites. The main characters are pretty anime-ish, all anime protagonists from that time look more or less the same, but the older adults (apparently Go is a bit of an old person's game in Japan) are drawn in a more naturalistic style with a lot of character. > in Go there’s this unspoken understanding that if you drive people away, you’ll have no one left to play with. Definitively not in o…

Can confirm. Visited a Go Salon once. It makes a retirement home look young. Wouldn't be surprised if average age was 80+.

Re: Learn to play Go

#117
post #74

I heavily dislike the auto-generated translations. They sound weird and make the website look cheap. I would rather you provided no translations and maybe let those less comfortable with English among us use their browser's auto-translate feature. Also, I'm sure there are several volunteers out there who would gladly translate this amazing resource for free.

> Also, I'm sure there are several volunteers out there who would gladly translate this amazing resource for free.

The site is doing this exactly because those volunteers haven't shown up. Be the change you want to see in the world.

Re: Learn to play Go

#118
post #4

By chance I used this just a few weeks ago when I started learning to play Go. It's a pretty good resource! Personally, my favorite tutorial I went through was The Interactive Way to Go ( https://way-to-go.gitlab.io ) Also notable is Sensei's Library ( https://senseis.xmp.net ) which is a very old and unbelievably thorough wiki on everything Go. It's a cool place to browse even if you don't play.

Sensei's Library is a gem from the non-commercial web! It reminds me of the C2 wiki (https://wiki.c2.com) but for Go instead of software engineering.

Re: Learn to play Go

#120
I enjoyed learning at first but I found the course overall really, really tedious. I stopped during the 12 back to back quiz questions asking how many liberties there are on a board. Clearly by the 6th iteration I knew how to count. It could likely be condensed.
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