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Learn to play Go

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Re: Learn to play Go

#91

Post by ProllyInfamous »

joeyrideout wrote: post #8

I became interested in learning Go recently after watching the magnificent AlphaGo movie [1] which is free on YouTube. I highly recommend giving it a watch if you haven't already. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuK6gekU1Y

Watching the human programmers become dumbfounded as AlphaGo invented novel Go-playing strategies... is what I remember most from having watched this a few years ago (right before GPT3.5/ChatGPT debuted). The algorithm makes [victorious] wildcard moves which no human player would even contemplate [stupid moves become masterplays].

When 9D-master Sudol attributes human qualities to the beauty of his AI opponent's creativity upon formulating certain moves... is definitely eye-opening. Hubris replaced.

Re: Learn to play Go

#92

Post by dragontamer »

ProllyInfamous wrote: post #91
joeyrideout wrote: post #8

I became interested in learning Go recently after watching the magnificent AlphaGo movie [1] which is free on YouTube. I highly recommend giving it a watch if you haven't already. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuK6gekU1Y

Watching the human programmers become dumbfounded as AlphaGo invented novel Go-playing strategies... is what I remember most from having watched this a few years ago (right before GPT3.5/ChatGPT debuted). The algorithm makes [victorious] wildcard moves which no human player would even contemplate [stupid moves become masterplays]. When 9D-master Sudol attributes human qualities to the beauty of his AI opponent's crea…

Nah.

I think with the rise of KataGo, its becoming clear that AlphaGo's "dumbfounded" strategies were instead incredibly strong tactical play with hilarious levels of blindness with regards to ladders.

It feels like modern AIs (like KataGo, which are hundreds of times better than AlphaGo) are getting closer to what humans consider appropriate strategic play.

Go players must be humble because if the opponent is stronger then the opponent wins. But Go AI Programmers don't necessarily have to be. Go AI programmers look for the weaknesses, lean upon them and yes, prove that AlphaGo/AlphaZero never learned ladders. Ever. Or other such concepts of strongly forcing moves (ex: loose ladders).

That's one of KataGo's biggest innovations. Explicitly programming a ladder solver so that simple ladders can indeed be factored in by the neural net.

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I do wonder how Lee Sodul will react if we told him that the superhuman AI he played could not see ladders... and had other such key weaknesses.

Re: Learn to play Go

#93

Post by nearting »

sagaro wrote: post #2

This is pretty well made. The progression is good and there are no distractions. And best part it doesn't force you to create an account.

Yes, but without an account, at least on mobile, you can't change any settings besides light/dark mode and language, which is pretty annoying.

Re: Learn to play Go

#94

Post by s1110 »

ggm wrote: post #36

Across years of play, the only game of go I won, was a win by default at inter university go in the UK when my opponent didn't show up. I even lost the game I played with my son, teaching him the moves. It's a great game.

To learn the basics of Go you have to lose your first 100 games

Re: Learn to play Go

#95

Post by qnpnp »

dragontamer wrote: post #87
qnpnp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly disagree. Fuseki (opening) doesn't matter much for most players. AI confirmed that a wide variety of openings, even weird ones far removed from the usual credo, work very well. At worst you may lose a couple points in doing so, but unless you play at a high level that's negligible and will never be the reason you lost. Joseki (corner sequences) is also not that important, and certainly not something any beginn…

These tutorials don't even teach horse-move, 1-point jump or similar movements though. With so much emphasis on cut and strong play, anyone completing this set of tutorials is going to be an absurdly strong tactician and then lose 20 points as the opponent horse-moves around the board. Surely you've played the beginner who favors tactics and capture at the expense of easily captured territory? Given this set of tutor…

Sorry if I'm missing something but are you responding to the right comment? Your answer doesn't seem related to what I said.

I'm also not sure how that relates to your earlier point about "Joseki", which I was disputing (like many others).

Re: Learn to play Go

#96

Post by aapoalas »

okkdev wrote: post #43
szopa wrote: post #31

I first learned to play Go back in university, but never got very good (it was competing with learning how to program). Many years later, shortly after the war in Ukraine started, I was looking for an activity to share with my 8-year-old son. Life was chaotic then: everyone was anxious, we were hosting a refugee lady, and I could see the stress taking a toll on him. I wanted something where it would be clear we shoul…

Hikaru no Go manga is super good too. Aged very well as well. Manga/Anime from that time usually has some problematic stereotypes/scenes.

Heh, HnG definitely does think all Koreans have slits for eyes.

Re: Learn to play Go

#97

Post by aapoalas »

drillbit wrote: post #58

I learnt to play Go about 15 years ago, in university—never to a particularly high level, but it was a satisfying experience nonetheless. Much like learning to play a musical instrument, it teaches perseverance, discipline, and self-restraint while also letting you have fun. Back then there were many fewer online resources in English for learning Go. These days there's also professional-level commentary in English (M…

I'm a big fan of local proverbs / vernacular in go, enough to ask about them on Reddit quite a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/7fgru4/local_go_vern...

Maybe you'll find them useful or fun :)

Re: Learn to play Go

#98

Post by dragontamer »

qnpnp wrote: post #95
dragontamer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These tutorials don't even teach horse-move, 1-point jump or similar movements though. With so much emphasis on cut and strong play, anyone completing this set of tutorials is going to be an absurdly strong tactician and then lose 20 points as the opponent horse-moves around the board. Surely you've played the beginner who favors tactics and capture at the expense of easily captured territory? Given this set of tutor…

Sorry if I'm missing something but are you responding to the right comment? Your answer doesn't seem related to what I said. I'm also not sure how that relates to your earlier point about "Joseki", which I was disputing (like many others).

This is a discussion about the linked tutorials, is it not?

Look at the tutorials. Do you not see the lack of strategic discussion? Its evident from the outline.

There's no strategy here. There's no Joseki theory. There's no movement tutorial. There's no middle game, direction of play or other such tutorial.

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Like read the tutorials I'm trying to describe. They're full of sound tactical advice but any beginner who only uses this set of tutorials will have difficulty on the strategic aspects of their game. I think Joseki theory would help them very much (as well as many other kinds of tutorials or discussion).

There's nothing wrong with one online tutorial to focus on tactics. But its also important that any reader (especially the beginners who come into this discussion) realize what they're missing. Joseki is perhaps the most obvious missing element from this set of tutorials.

IE: Every beginner coming in here won't know what to do for their first move of a real game even if they complete this set of tactical tutorials.

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What's your idea of the readers coming into here? My mental model is that this is Hacker News, and that very, very casual beginners on the order of ~30kyu are going to start reading these tutorials and maybe start playing Go.

I think my advice from the first post is helpful to them. If you complete this set of tutorials, definitely study something like Joseki (or other ignored topics).

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Go isn't a game like chess. In Go, 80% of your pieces will often survive into the endgame. You don't need "strong" tactics because in the vast majority of cases, you can survive. The difference between "strong" tactics vs "weak" tactics is only a few stones or points of territory.

In contrast, the difference between playing in the correct direction of play and not is easily worth 20+ point moves, as you capture large swaths of territory. Maybe you as a ~single-digit-kyu or low-dan player have forgotten these kinds of mistakes. But I assure you that double-digit kyu / beginners will make these mistakes all the time.

Re: Learn to play Go

#99

Post by beej71 »

I was introduced to this game over 30 years ago. And since then I've been studying and playing on and off. And today I can safely say... I'm still horrible at it. :)

But, damn, this is a beautiful game. It's fun and there's no upper limit to the challenge. The way the game ends (by agreement that there are no further moves of benefit to either player) is amazing, as are the handicap rules (which make it so players of differing (to a point) strengths can still play all-out against one another).

The boards and pieces are works of art in themselves, and the game is steeped in tradition.

That said, the boards and stones can be expensive, so lots of people DIY which is also fun. There's a web page out there that talks about making boards with MDF and Sharpies. And you can buy melamine stones relatively cheaply, though if you can find glass or ceramic stones for a little more, they're much nicer.

When we were starving students in junior college and first learned about the game, we went out on a country road and gathered all the relatively small, round stones we could from the shoulder. Then we went to my parents' garage and found cans of black and white spray paint to paint the stones, and some leftover wood paneling that we cut in a square and lined with a magic marker.

The set was, arguably, offensively ugly. But I still have it in my closet.

Re: Learn to play Go

#100

Post by nakedrobot2 »

nearting wrote: post #93
sagaro wrote: post #2

This is pretty well made. The progression is good and there are no distractions. And best part it doesn't force you to create an account.

Yes, but without an account, at least on mobile, you can't change any settings besides light/dark mode and language, which is pretty annoying.

honestly i find it confusing. it tells me to make a move, but i don't know if i'm playing black or white. sometimes when i click on a point, it puts the opposite color on a different point.
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