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Learn to play Go

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Re: Learn to play Go

#31
I first learned to play Go back in university, but never got very good (it was competing with learning how to program). Many years later, shortly after the war in Ukraine started, I was looking for an activity to share with my 8-year-old son. Life was chaotic then: everyone was anxious, we were hosting a refugee lady, and I could see the stress taking a toll on him. I wanted something where it would be clear we shouldn’t be disturbed – and Go fit perfectly. We started playing, and it was fun. One of the great things about Go is its elegant handicap system, which makes it possible for players at very different levels to still enjoy a fair, challenging game.

Since then, we’ve been going to the local Go club in Warsaw, and it’s become our main hobby. We play each other almost daily, travel to tournaments (sometimes abroad), and even spend our vacations at Go summer camp.

The camp is actually a magical event. It takes place at a campsite in the middle of the Kaszuby Lake District. The conditions are spartan – you either live in a tent or a five-person cabin, and hot water is scarce. But the crowd that gathers there is incredible. Over breakfast you might get an impromptu intro to lambda calculus, in the evening you might end up in a deep philosophical conversation, or hear travel stories from far-off places, or suddenly learn way more about knitting than you thought possible. When we first went, it felt like discovering our long-lost family.

The Go community is much smaller than chess, but also far more tight-knit and welcoming. I’ve heard chess can be more cutthroat, while in Go there’s this unspoken understanding that if you drive people away, you’ll have no one left to play with.

When I travel, I like to drop in on local Go clubs. It’s always been a great experience – I especially enjoyed visiting the San Francisco Go Club in Japantown.

I play almost exclusively over the board. I prefer long, thoughtful games, and I can’t really focus the same way on a screen.

Oh, and the anime about Go, Hikaru no Go, is really good (you should watch it even if you don’t care about the game).

Re: Learn to play Go

#33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only one way to find out. If you dislike chess because you don't like abstract total information strategy board games you will not like go. If you dislike chess because - it has too many rules, - the board is too smalll, - the pieces move around too much, or - it doesn't involve adversarial, collaborative construction, or any of the other things that make go different from chess, you have a chance of liking go.

> If you dislike chess because you don't like abstract total information strategy board games you will not like go I think that's why I don't like chess. It seems to me that a winning strategy would be to think as far ahead as possible by enumerating all the permutations. A few heuristics exist however.

The neat thing about Go is that, whilst the winning strategy is exactly to think ahead and enumerate all possible positions, to do so is impossible. (Even the superhuman AI fudge it. They can just read farther ahead than humans.)

So to do well you have to learn how to support your reading ahead with heuristics and a feel for the game.

A famous amateur player and advocate for the game once went through all the game records of Go Seigen in order to digitize them. This means having to pore over hand-written diagrams looking for the next number in the sequence of moves. Obviously this is easier if you can guess where to look. But, if you guess them all correctly, then you are playing just as well as the old master! After spending a good few months on the task, he was a significantly better player!

Re: Learn to play Go

#34
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. For very high level play, yes, opening theory matters. For beginners, rote "reading", i.e. playing out moves in one's head, matters much more. This is an unintuitive aspect of go because it is different from virtually every other strategy game. In most strategy games, "macro" (large scale logistics) is what determines winners at all levels of play, and then at higher levels where logistics skills are simi…

> This is an unintuitive aspect of go because it is different from virtually every other strategy game. No, it isn't. As a decent chess and go player I can tell you that they're both just tactics until you approach the master/dan level. And what is strategy if not just a longer form of tactical play? At the end of the day, strategic play is just play that sets up tactics later on. Or, to quote Fischer: "Tactics flow…

The Fischer quote sounds like the opposite of what you're saying, i.e. it's a suggestion to prioritise macro over micro: "from good logistics, tactics will sort itself out".

Re: Learn to play Go

#35

Will I like go if I don’t like chess? Chess seems too one dimensional for me if that makes sense.

I don't like chess, but like go. Go feels way more free form. In chess it feels like every move has been played already and has a name. I feel like I need to study up on all of it. In go there's so many possibilities, I just play something interesting and see where it takes me. Honestly just give it a go. :)

Re: Learn to play Go

#36
Across years of play, the only game of go I won, was a win by default at inter university go in the UK when my opponent didn't show up.

I even lost the game I played with my son, teaching him the moves.

It's a great game.

Re: Learn to play Go

#37
post #31

I first learned to play Go back in university, but never got very good (it was competing with learning how to program). Many years later, shortly after the war in Ukraine started, I was looking for an activity to share with my 8-year-old son. Life was chaotic then: everyone was anxious, we were hosting a refugee lady, and I could see the stress taking a toll on him. I wanted something where it would be clear we shoul…

That anime is one of my favorites. The main characters are pretty anime-ish, all anime protagonists from that time look more or less the same, but the older adults (apparently Go is a bit of an old person's game in Japan) are drawn in a more naturalistic style with a lot of character.

> in Go there’s this unspoken understanding that if you drive people away, you’ll have no one left to play with.

Definitively not in online Go. I ran into some people who clearly thought racist trash-talk was a way to reduce the competition.

Re: Learn to play Go

#38
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you dislike chess because you don't like abstract total information strategy board games you will not like go I think that's why I don't like chess. It seems to me that a winning strategy would be to think as far ahead as possible by enumerating all the permutations. A few heuristics exist however.

The neat thing about Go is that, whilst the winning strategy is exactly to think ahead and enumerate all possible positions, to do so is impossible. (Even the superhuman AI fudge it. They can just read farther ahead than humans.) So to do well you have to learn how to support your reading ahead with heuristics and a feel for the game. A famous amateur player and advocate for the game once went through all the game re…

Nice. As systems become more and more complicated (like real world itself) it is no longer feasible to enumerate all permutations but rather get a feel for the patterns - an intuition. A skilled intuiter (?) would know the subtle ways in which patterns emerge.

Re: Learn to play Go

#39
post #11

I recently learned Go for the first time and I have played almost 50 games of 9x9 on Online Go Server so far. I’m finding it a lot of fun but it has been very humbling. I learned chess in 7th or 8th grade and was easily able to get to about 700 Elo on chess.com after barely learning the rules, which is about the 60th percentile on the site. I only play a couple games a year now but can still hold my own against 1200…

The average FIDE elo is 1550; chess.com's average of 1200 elo is much lower because it has many beginner players, including children. The gap between those is huge--much larger than the numbers may suggest. At chess.com 1200 elo people still have terrible board vision and routinely drop pieces; by the time one reaches FIDE 1550 elo that is no longer true and people are starting to plot out complex tactics requiring a…

> The average FIDE elo is 1550; chess.com's average of 1200 elo is much lower because it has many beginner players, including children.

Why would that lower the average elo? Elo is a conserved quantity: for you to gain points, your opponent must lose that many points, and vice versa.

So there are two obvious facts about the average rating:

1. In a closed system, the average rating can never change, not up or down, not by any infinitesimal fraction of a point.

2. In an open system, the average rating can change, but for it to go down would require players with an above-average rating to leave the system.

In the much more common scenario where beginners come in, lose a bunch of games, and then leave, the average rating will go up over time.

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