Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?" • Hacker News Board

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#41

Post by dominik » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 2:51 PM UTC

Something from the article worth quoting: "It's saving that kind of intimacy for those that are close to you, your friends and family, who have earned the privilege. For the first time, I saw that the abbaya may have a role in protecting women, and not as something simply designed to control them."

Once upon a time, the same sort of idea existed in the West, in the lost art of modesty (buried alongside chivalry nowadays). The idea that not everyone need be exposed to everything. That some things are better saved and not sold.

How many times in the United States do men look at women not as persons but as objects? Seeing not the woman as she is, but merely as she appears -- not respecting her as a person but instead consuming her as a visual image.

Whether in Saudi Arabia or in the United States, the first principle to keep in mind involves respect for the human person as such -- man or woman.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#42

Post by biohacker42 » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 3:13 PM UTC

michaelneale wrote: post #26

biohacker42 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In his defense, I don't think he was suggesting it's either spam or egregiously off topic. What bothers curmudgeons like me and him is the gentle slope towards Everybody News.

I was worried about that over 6 months ago, and in that time it hasn't got worse then it was then, so heres hoping it stays that way ! (just a single data point, but its something !). Do you think it is "sliding" over time? Or are you just (rightly so) being vigilant ?

I do have a subtle feeling it's sliding but that's very likely just my paranoia.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#43

Post by astrid » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 3:45 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #29

blurry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Proponents of status quo always invoke tradition and use some attractively pastoral but highly marginal examples to paint a white-washed picture that's quite far from reality. In reality, it's not about the clothes. Muslim men base forcing women to cover up on "hard" facts of exactly the "sun orbits the earth" variety. If you did not think western, you would know that these men think of women as being both natur…

BS. I am not defending culture. But you are inserting narrative. Exactly the way these 'men' are. The reality is that it is not 'Muslim men forcing women to cover up.' It is society forcing women to cover up. Culture. The reality is that culture is almost always coercive & has many irrational elements. Dress codes particularly so. The fact that they base it on supposed hard facts is irrelevant. People always think th…

Blurry is all BS, but there is another obvious reason : anybody who really travels knows that TV is ubiquitous in the Arab world, and they mainly watch Western programs. Moreover, there are a lot more occidentalized anchor women on Arab TV (like Aljazeera) than you might think, who don't wear anything at all. Tradition is not to be confused with dumb ignorance.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#44

Post by blurry » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 3:52 PM UTC

wheels wrote: post #32

blurry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Proponents of status quo always invoke tradition and use some attractively pastoral but highly marginal examples to paint a white-washed picture that's quite far from reality. In reality, it's not about the clothes. Muslim men base forcing women to cover up on "hard" facts of exactly the "sun orbits the earth" variety. If you did not think western, you would know that these men think of women as being both natur…

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent. The views of…

Nothing is as dangerous as half truths so let's look at what really happened as far your example of female leadership in Muslim countries.

Yes, at first glance 3 of the 4 countries in your example (Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh) have "elected" a female as president/prime minister. However, without exception these women were the daughters or widows of the previous heads of state. Their appointments represent the feudal tradition of inheriting power by family relation rather than popular vote as you are implying.

The 4th country, India, is an even worse example. Not only muslims are a minority in India (a quick lookup tells me between 15% and 20%), prior to the elections the muslim-indian leadership demanded that the female candidate be disqualified because she made some sort of a statement against veils.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#45

Post by blurry » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 4:07 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #34

Retric wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get all kinds. The united states is a vary technologically advanced mostly christian society. Yet, if you look at the Anabaptist Christian denomination and think that's how most Americans live your kidding yourself. We might call them Amish, but the 227,000 Anabaptist Christian's hold fairly mainstream beliefs for the most part are are a fairly large slice of the American experience. Talking about Islamic culture…

Your missing the main point. The comment being responded to is BS. 'Even modorate muslims actually believe that womean sink.' That's pure BS. You might encounter it in end cases, isolated, uneducated, poor or ultra-religious sectors but on the whole it's BS. It is just like Europeans (& others) citing Americans that think the world is flat or don't notice when you swap Russia & N. Korea on a map. "Even American geolo…

Now that's just plain rude. What makes you say that I made up my story? If you feel that your position is strong, why do you need to attack me personally? Talk about quality of the argument...

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#46

Post by wheels » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 4:33 PM UTC

blurry wrote: post #44

wheels wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent. The views of…

Nothing is as dangerous as half truths so let's look at what really happened as far your example of female leadership in Muslim countries. Yes, at first glance 3 of the 4 countries in your example (Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh) have "elected" a female as president/prime minister. However, without exception these women were the daughters or widows of the previous heads of state. Their appointments represent the…

Given that the US has frequently, and recently, elected children of previous presidents, and that the only serious contender for a female president was the wife of a former one, I think it hardly fair to discount other countries elected leaders on those grounds alone.

As for feudal traditions, all of those countries had been European colonies for about a century prior to organizing under their current systems. In the case of Indonesia, their first female president began 34 years after her father left office and after three other presidents were in office. She then lost the elections after three years in office. That hardly sounds "feudal".

And yes, Muslims are a minority in India. I assumed anyone reading this thread was aware of that.

My point is this: if these countries are one way or another electing female leadership, then it indicates that the issue of the views on women in those societies is more multidimensional than you're painting it. At the very least it's not consistent across the range from Western Africa to Eastern Asia. The problems are real, but they're best addressed when approached through examining the situations in their complexity, rather than trying to reduce them to a single wacky-sane spectrum.

This thread typifies why I think politics should be kept off of HN. It just degenerates into this sort of stuff where everyone's regurgitating what they already believe and on the whole the net amount of respect for one another goes down.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#47

Post by yters » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 6:53 PM UTC

wheels wrote: post #46

blurry wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is as dangerous as half truths so let's look at what really happened as far your example of female leadership in Muslim countries. Yes, at first glance 3 of the 4 countries in your example (Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh) have "elected" a female as president/prime minister. However, without exception these women were the daughters or widows of the previous heads of state. Their appointments represent the…

Given that the US has frequently, and recently, elected children of previous presidents, and that the only serious contender for a female president was the wife of a former one, I think it hardly fair to discount other countries elected leaders on those grounds alone. As for feudal traditions, all of those countries had been European colonies for about a century prior to organizing under their current systems. In the…

"We can't criticize them b/c we do something loosely similar" is a bad argument to make. Really, we should criticize both cultures.

Also, topics that are traditionally hard to discuss online should be discussed more here. It is mostly on HN where I've seen people make an effort to understand both sides.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#48

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 9:06 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #47

wheels wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the US has frequently, and recently, elected children of previous presidents, and that the only serious contender for a female president was the wife of a former one, I think it hardly fair to discount other countries elected leaders on those grounds alone. As for feudal traditions, all of those countries had been European colonies for about a century prior to organizing under their current systems. In the…

"We can't criticize them b/c we do something loosely similar" is a bad argument to make. Really, we should criticize both cultures. Also, topics that are traditionally hard to discuss online should be discussed more here. It is mostly on HN where I've seen people make an effort to understand both sides.

[deleted]

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#49

Post by netcan » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 10:54 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #47

wheels wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the US has frequently, and recently, elected children of previous presidents, and that the only serious contender for a female president was the wife of a former one, I think it hardly fair to discount other countries elected leaders on those grounds alone. As for feudal traditions, all of those countries had been European colonies for about a century prior to organizing under their current systems. In the…

"We can't criticize them b/c we do something loosely similar" is a bad argument to make. Really, we should criticize both cultures. Also, topics that are traditionally hard to discuss online should be discussed more here. It is mostly on HN where I've seen people make an effort to understand both sides.

I do not think this thread is a good example.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#50

Post by netcan » Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 11:41 PM UTC

blurry wrote: post #45

netcan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your missing the main point. The comment being responded to is BS. 'Even modorate muslims actually believe that womean sink.' That's pure BS. You might encounter it in end cases, isolated, uneducated, poor or ultra-religious sectors but on the whole it's BS. It is just like Europeans (& others) citing Americans that think the world is flat or don't notice when you swap Russia & N. Korea on a map. "Even American geolo…

Now that's just plain rude. What makes you say that I made up my story? If you feel that your position is strong, why do you need to attack me personally? Talk about quality of the argument...

I think your anecdote is made up, embellished or an end case not representative at all of whatever moderate Muslim country you refer to.

Since you presented this 'example,' as an example I mentioned the above. It was not a criticism of you but a criticism of the fact that this example is not being treated as such. To me that is strong indication of an unhealthy bias here.