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Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

reuters.com

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Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#111

Post by ellen364 »

rtpg wrote: post #53
lmm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I watched the video and the suggestion is that this makes it easier for employers to verify that someone is authorized to work. Is that actually true? Yes. The rules are complex, and currently the government essentially deputizes employers and banks to enforce them; anyone running e.g. a restaurant is having to essentially guess whether a potential employee is in the UK legally or not, on pain of criminal charges i…

> anyone running e.g. a restaurant is having to essentially guess whether a potential employee is in the UK legally or not, on pain of criminal charges if they get it wrong in one direction and discrimination lawsuits if they get it wrong in the other. I don't get this. Is there nothing like some sort of number to register any tax withholding or the like? I imagine that tax authorities and immigration authorities don…

To work, you need to provide a National Insurance number, which is unique and tied to certain state benefits like pension. The idea is you work, pay "national insurance" contributions and accrue "contributing years" to get a state pension later.

The wrinkle is that it doesn't seem to be tied well to identity. Someone working illegally can provide an NI number that's legit but not theirs. Their work accrues to someone else's NI record, but the person getting the extra years probably never notices and the person working under their NI number doesn't care because they aren't entitled to a state pension anyway, they just want to work now.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#112

Post by pbhjpbhj »

arrowsmith wrote: post #86
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #80

I didn't watch the video, but have read other reports, and it's worth noting that the context for this is the Labour Party conference, which starts on Sunday. The UK govt are under pressure from the tories and Reform to do something about people entering the UK from France by crossing the channel in small boats. Nothing much seems to be working. So this announcement is about trying to control the narrative by making…

“Nothing much seems to be working” because the government is completely unserious about stopping the boats and is unwilling to do any of the things that might actually work. They could stop them in a week if they actually wanted to.

Legally and morally? What is your solution?

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#113

Post by incone123 »

arrowsmith wrote: post #79
derektank wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proper border checks don't do much if people enter the country legally but overstay their visas IDs (along with verification laws) discourage employers from hiring unauthorized immigrants, and without access to gainful employment, many will opt to return to their country of origin, or choose not to come in the first place.

You are describing the current system. Employers can receive business-ending fines (at least in theory) for hiring illegal labour. I’ve never worked a job in the UK that didn’t require me to prove my right to work here, eg by showing them my passport. Digitising the IDs will make no difference. And frankly, if you believe this is actually about immigration then I’m embarrassed for you. Everyone can see that they’re j…

I have never seen a report of a business ending because of a fine. I have seen reports of hospitality business having to close because they lost their alcohol licence, where the licencee employing illegal immigrants was deemed not to be a fit and proper person.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#114

Post by Nursie »

crote wrote: post #90
Nursie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there is almost guaranteed to be an aspect of this, the UK is going through a period where immigration is in the news constantly and the populist party "Reform UK" are on the rise. The Labour government has realised that whatever their own feelings are about people coming to the UK by irregular means and claiming asylum, they need to be seen to recognise the popular narrative right now that the boats must be st…

The media are (mostly) just parrotting what the politicians are saying. Having both major parties talking about "stopping the boat" isn't going to quiet down that down, is it? It'll just shift the Overton window. What's Labour's plan when the boats are stopped and Reform progresses to "round up and deport all the brown people"? They are never going to out-anti-immigrant the anti-immigrants, all they will achieve is l…

I think that the boats thing stirs up ideas that migration is out of control, that the government is unable or unwilling to get a grip on the situation, that the system (even if they don't know what the system is, or even if there is a system) is being abused and somehow cheated. That's (IMHO) why it's so easy to get people riled up on irregular migration.

I'm not sure if they end that route that they would need to out-anti-immigrant the anti-immigrants any further, but in the current climate they will need to be able to make the case that the country can decide who comes in, and that migration is to the benefit of everyone, migrant or not.

Again, it doesn't really matter if it's an actual problem, it is an important enough perceived problem that they need to be able to show they have a grip on it and are running the show in the interests of the average Brit on the street.

Then to really put the issue to bed, they'll need to do something about the failing services and general feeling of decline in the UK. As I said in response to a sister comment - you don't get many nazis when people feel their lives are going well. It's not so concerning if some out group is getting a slice of the cake if you feel you're getting yours too. It's when your slice seems to get a little smaller every day that you start looking for scapegoats.

Of course the other question is - will they actually lose the left wing vote? Or would they win it back?

Opinion polls in UK politics (from what I've heard on the radio) put the politics of 'Reform' voters left of centre - they're keen on renationalising rail, water and electricity for a start. All solid left-wing ideas outside of immigration policy, that you'd usually expect to hear from Labour supporters.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#115

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mrob wrote: post #81
mastazi wrote: post #17

I'm not clear if this is digital ONLY or if I people can choose to carry a physical card when required, instead of a smartphone. If it's the former, then it means it's now mandatory for all British citizens to become customers of the Google/Apple duopoly LOL

And "become customers" means it will become mandatory to sign away your rights to a foreign corporation by agreeing to their terms of service. This kind of abuse of power is a clear example of why the UK needs a real constitution.

The UK has a real constitution. A central side of it is HRA 1998 which Tory/Reform want to do away with because it curtails power of government.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#116

Post by lvturner »

elcritch wrote: post #14
lvturner wrote: post #5

Having just paid a small fortune to renew my passport. I'm not super excited about this, especially as I live outside the UK. I also don't trust them not to make a complete hash of all this, removing all potential utility while simultaneously increasing the chances of my ID being stolen. sigh

As an American it seems to me that the UK government insists on finding a way to upset all sides on any given issue like illegal immigration. If anything it's the singular and unique skill of Whitehall.

To be fair though, complaining about 'things' is practically a British national sport.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#117

Post by incone123 »

logifail wrote: post #67
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does a digital ID solve an illegal immigration problem? It's presumably harder to forge a cryptographic signature than paper documents? Not saying it's a good tradeoff. But executed competently, it makes sense in theory.

> It's presumably harder to forge a cryptographic signature than paper documents? Unless there is both serious pressure from the state and the population at large supports a massive increase in checking and being checked I struggle to see this working. During the pandemic various countries experimented with mandating showing of QR codes to do stuff to "prove" compliance ... yet looking back on that, all it seems to h…

Checking for right to work has been legally required for over a decade. Checks in the formal economy are now routine. Can sometimes be a nuisance, like for my friend who doesn't have a passport and his driving license was issued before those went photographic.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#118

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Nursie wrote: post #27
isodev wrote: post #12

I’ve always lived in places where having an ID on you has been part of your “citizen responsibilities”. So reading the post my feeling was “oh cool, they’re getting a new eID-like system”. But I imagine it’s a huge step if folks could get by without an ID at all.

In the UK it has never been compulsory to carry ID, even when driving. At a traffic stop the police have the option to require you to present documents at a police station within seven days if they think something is fishy. And people do seem to exist quite happily without formal identification. As someone who has always had a passport and driving license it was a bit of an eye-opener to me, but if you don't drive an…

One needs a "National Insurance" number (NINO) to work legally.

I thought it was also required to collect any type of government benefit too.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#119

Post by incone123 »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #99
monerozcash wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not very hard to forge the application papers. Passport fraud is already not uncommon in Britain, people are getting authentic passports with cryptographic signatures using dishonest applications every single day.

So a forged or stolen id card will be impossible?

Can't say until the implementation is revealed, but the person you replied to pointed out that fraud at the application stage is a problem.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#120

Post by mrob »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #115
mrob wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And "become customers" means it will become mandatory to sign away your rights to a foreign corporation by agreeing to their terms of service. This kind of abuse of power is a clear example of why the UK needs a real constitution.

The UK has a real constitution. A central side of it is HRA 1998 which Tory/Reform want to do away with because it curtails power of government.

A real constitution is not a vague collection of traditions. Every other country understands "constitution" to mean a written document. A collection of traditions cannot meet the primary aim of a constitution, which is granting people clear and unambiguous rights.

Furthermore, a constitution is generally more difficult to change than a law. The Human Rights Act can be repealed by a simple majority of MPs voting to repeal it.

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