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Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

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Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#142

When Tesla demoed (via video) self-driving in 2016 with a claim "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself" and then when they unveiled Semi in 2017 - I tweeted out and honestly thought that trucking industry is changed forever and it doesn't make sense to be starting in trucking industry. It's almost end of 2025 and either nothing out of it o…

> thought that trucking industry is changed forever What I find really crazy is that most trains are still driven by humans.

only 2 people (engineer and conductor) for an entire train that is over a mile long seems about right to me though

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#143
I lived this previously. The author is missing some important context.

Spray-and-Pray Algorithms

After AlexNet, dozens of companies rushed into medical imaging. They grabbed whatever data they could find, trained a model, then pushed it through the FDA’s broken clearance process. Most of these products failed in practice because they were junk. In mammography, only 2–3 companies actually built clinically useful products.

Products actually have to be useful.

There were two products in the space: CAD, and Triage. CAD is basically overlay on the screen as you read the case. Rads hated this because it was distracting and because the feature-engineering based CAD from the 80s-90s was demonstrated to be a failure. Users basically ignored "CADs."

Triage is when you prioritize cases (cancers to the top of the stack). This has little to no value because when you have a stack of 50 cases you have to do today, then why do you care about the order? There were some niche use cases but it was largely pointless. It could actually detrimental. The algotithm would put easy cancer cases on the top, so now the user would spend less time on the rest of the stack (where the harder cases would end up).

*Side note:* did you know that using CAD was a billable extra to insurance. Even through it was proven to not work, for years it remained reimbursable up until a few years ago.

Poor Validation Standards

Models collapsed in the real world because the FDA process is designed for drugs/hardware, not adaptive software. Validation typically = ~300 “golden” cases, labeled by 3 radiologists with majority vote arbitration. If 3 rads say it’s cancer, it’s cancer. If they disagree, it's not a good case for the study. This filtering ignores the hard cases (where readers disagree), which is exactly what models need to handle in the real world. Instead of 500K noisy real-world studies, you validate on a sanitized dataset. Companies learned how to “cheat” by over fitting to these toy datasets. You can explain this to regulators endlessly, but the bureaucracy only accepts the previously blessed process. Note: The previous process was defined by CAD, a product that was cleared in the 80s and shown to fail miserably in clinical use. This validation standard that demonstrated grand historical regulatory failure is the current standard that you MUST use for any devices that look like a CAD in mammography.

Politics Over Outcomes

We ran the largest multi-site prospective (15) trial in the space. Results: ~50% reduction in radiologist workload. Increased cancer detection rate. 10x lower cost per study. We even caught cancers missed in the standard workflow. Clinics still resisted adoption—because admitting missed cancers looked bad for their reputation. Bureaucratic EU healthcare systems preferred to avoid the embarrassment even through it was entirely internal.

I'll leave you with one particularly salient story. I was speaking to the head a large US hospital IT/Ops organization. We had a 30 minute conversation about how to avoid putting our software decision in the EMR/PACS so that they could avoid litigation risk. Not once did we ever talk about patient impact. Not Once...

Despite all that, our system caught cancers that would have been missed. Last I checked at least 104 women had their cancers detected by our software and are still walking around. That’s the real win, even if politics buried the broader impact.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#144
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that in medicine, much like automobiles, unexpected failure modes may be catastrophic to individual people. “Fixing” failure modes like the above comment is not difficult from a technical standpoint, that’s true, but you can only fix it once you’ve identified it, and at that point you may have a dead person/people. That’s why AI in medicine and self driving cars are so unlike AI for programming or writin…

Yet self-driving cars are already competitive with human drivers, safety-wise, given responsible engineering and deployment practices. Like medicine, self-driving is more of a seemingly-unsolvable political problem than a seemingly-unsolvable technical one. It's not entirely clear how we'll get there from here, but it will be solved. Would you put money on humans still driving themselves around 25-50 years from now?…

Telsa told everybody 10 years ago self driving cars were a reality.

Waymo claims to have it. Some hackernews comenters too, I started to belive those are Waymo employees or stock owners.

Apart from that I know nobody that has even use or even seen a self driving car.

Self-driving cars are not a thing so you can't say they are more realible than humans.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors have malpractice insurance and other kinds of insurance for that. They won't go bankrupt in reality.

By that logic you would get malpractice insurance for the AI to similarly offload the risk.

Yeah, I mean it's analogous to car insurance for self driving cars. People, including lawyers, insurers and courts are just averse to it intuitively. I'm not saying they are wrong or right, but it's how it is.

I believe medical AI will probably take hold first in a poorer countries where the existing care is too bad/unaffordable, then as it proves itself there, it may slowly find its way to richer countries.

But probably lobbying will be strong against it, just as you can't get cheap generic medications made in India if you live in the US.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#146
post #8

As a doctor and full stack engineer, I would never go into radiology or seek further training in it. (obviously) AI is going to augment radiologists first, and eventually, it will start to replace them. And existing radiologists will transition into stuff like interventional radiology or whatever new areas will come into the picture in the future.

>AI is going to augment radiologists first, and eventually, it will start to replace them.

I am a medical school drop-out — in my limited capacity, I concur, Doctor.

My dentist's AI has already designed a new mouth for me, implants &all ("I'm only doing 1% of the finish-work: whatever the patient says doesn't feel just quite right, yet"—myDMD). He then CNCs in-house on his $xxx,xxx 4-axis.

IMHO: Many classes of physicians are going to be reduced to nothing more than malpractice-insurance-paying business owners, MD/DO. The liability-holders, good doctor.

In alignment with last week's (H)(1)(b) discussion, it's interesting to note that ~30% of US physician resident "slots" (<$60kUSD salary) are filled by these foreigner visa-holders (so: +$100k cost per applicant, amortized over a few years of training, each).

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#147
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Waymo, not Robotaxi. Waymo is essentially the self driving vision I had as a kid, and ridership is growing exponentially as they expand. It's also very safe if you believe their statistics[0]. I think there's a saying about overestimating stuff in the short term and underestimating stuff in the long term that seems to apply here, though the radiologist narrative was definitely wrong. [0] https://waymo.com/saf…

I agree with both comments here. I wonder what the plausibility of fully autonomous trucking is in the next 10-30 years... Is there any saying that exists about overestimating stuff in the near term and long term but underestimating stuff in the midterm? Ie flying car dreams in the 50s etc.

If it were about the costs for employees, you could ship it with the railway. That simply isn't the reason.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#148

When Tesla demoed (via video) self-driving in 2016 with a claim "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself" and then when they unveiled Semi in 2017 - I tweeted out and honestly thought that trucking industry is changed forever and it doesn't make sense to be starting in trucking industry. It's almost end of 2025 and either nothing out of it o…

> thought that trucking industry is changed forever What I find really crazy is that most trains are still driven by humans.

Most work is actually in oversight and getting the train to run when parts fail. When running millions of machines 24/7 there is always a failing part. Also understanding gesticulation humans and running wildlife is not yet (fully) automatable.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I have no idea if Waymo will ever be a rural thing honestly, mostly for economic reasons. I'm skeptical it would get serious suburban usage this decade too. But for major cities where less than 80% of people own cars, test time doesn't seem to be making a difference. They've been expanding in Austin and Atlanta, seemingly with less prep time than Phoenix and San Fran.

Atlanta seems to be a bit contradictory to some of your other thoughts. The city itself is relatively small. A vast majority of area population lives distributed across the MSA, and it can create hellish traffic. I remember growing up thinking 1+ hour commutes were just a fact of life for everyone commuting from the suburbs. Not sure what car ownership looks like, and I haven’t been in years, but I’d imagine it’s sti…

Austin is also a car city, everyone has a car there. Public transit in Austin is a joke, and Waymo can't get on the highway so it's only useful for getting back to your hotel from Rainey Street, and maybe back to your dorm from the Drag, but nobody is using Waymo to commute from Round Rock

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#150

When Tesla demoed (via video) self-driving in 2016 with a claim "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself" and then when they unveiled Semi in 2017 - I tweeted out and honestly thought that trucking industry is changed forever and it doesn't make sense to be starting in trucking industry. It's almost end of 2025 and either nothing out of it o…

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