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Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

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Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#31

Post by jashmota »

jasongill wrote: post #30

This looks very interesting. I understand that hydraulic retrofit is compelling, but you may want to consider CANbus-based retrofits as well (similar to how CommaAI works, where it simply sends messages to the CANbus network to control steering or speed just like ADAS features do). Modern equipment is moving away from hydraulic controls toward a fully digital cockpit and being able to plug in and teleop (for less tha…

Thanks! Yes we're testing both CAN spoofing and retrofits. CAN spoofing really limits compatibility to a few machines/brands. Would love to get in touch with you: my email is contact ai useflywheel dot ai

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#32

Post by jashmota »

jeffbee wrote: post #17
seabrookmx wrote: post #14

> The joysticks are connected to a pilot hydraulic circuit, which proportionally moves the cylinders in the main hydraulic circuit which ultimately moves the excavator joints I've actually spent a decent amount of time running an excavator, as my Dad owns a construction / road building company. It was a great summer job! An important note about the pilot hydraulics is that they _provide feedback to the operator_. I w…

My car with its drive-by-wire brakes has a brake feedback simulator that gives the driver the kind of feeling associated with power-boosted hydraulic brakes. This is by far the most expensive single component in the car. Arguably these are just expensive accommodations for human flaws. A self-driving car wouldn't need them. Can't the self-driving system act directly on data like pressure, flow, and displacement?

That's indeed what we're trying to test to the extreme - to see how far we could go with just vision. We haven't done heavy excavation workflows yet, but we have some early success with some excavation workflows with just vision input and joystick action output (even without joint angle feedback!). We're betting on having really huge data with compact observation input and experiment to see if it holds water. If not we can always dial it down and add more sensors/feedback.

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#33

Post by jashmota »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #18
jeffbee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My car with its drive-by-wire brakes has a brake feedback simulator that gives the driver the kind of feeling associated with power-boosted hydraulic brakes. This is by far the most expensive single component in the car. Arguably these are just expensive accommodations for human flaws. A self-driving car wouldn't need them. Can't the self-driving system act directly on data like pressure, flow, and displacement?

Maybe it doesn't matter for a car because feeling the car's motion tells you most of what you need to know. A car is not meant to touch anything but the road, in normal conditions. I think steering is the only case where force feedback is very important for a car - In the winters up here, I can feel the steering go loose when I hit a patch of ice. I imagine an excavator, meant to touch and dig through things, and lif…

Interestingly, we had some people try out VR teleop: https://x.com/Scobleizer/status/1970245161306464667

https://x.com/jash_mota/status/1969091992140304703

I think force feedback is key for small excavators, but not really true for 25+ tons excavators. Hence how easy it is for operators to accidentally kill someone with it.

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#34

Post by Redster »

jashmota wrote: post #29
opwieurposiu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and you also get feedback from your butt as the machine tips and wobbles, particularly on smaller machines. Hearing the engine straining helps also. Often you can not clearly see what you are digging, this feedback lets you know if you are running into a rock or something. One big advantage would be cameras mounted on the boom and rear view cameras, as many machines have obstructed views.

We're indeed streaming the audio and have haptic feedback. My hypothesis is the seat vibration isn't as helpful. It's sub optimal and operators would be far more productive without it. We would do a paper when we have enough data on this. We're also putting more cameras but streaming a lot of them at once is tricky.

Humbly, have you used excavators of varying sizes on uneven ground? I have and would suggest it's more important than you might think. But if you've operated them, you might know better than I.

Also, teleoperation is likely to produce lower-quality operation data than hooking up to locally operated excavators. Just a thought.

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#35

Post by jashmota »

Redster wrote: post #34
jashmota wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're indeed streaming the audio and have haptic feedback. My hypothesis is the seat vibration isn't as helpful. It's sub optimal and operators would be far more productive without it. We would do a paper when we have enough data on this. We're also putting more cameras but streaming a lot of them at once is tricky.

Humbly, have you used excavators of varying sizes on uneven ground? I have and would suggest it's more important than you might think. But if you've operated them, you might know better than I. Also, teleoperation is likely to produce lower-quality operation data than hooking up to locally operated excavators. Just a thought.

I might be less experienced than you - I've operated upto 38 tons on maximum 15 degrees incline. I wasn't moving tracks a lot when I did that. Would like to hear what scenarios you'be been in and how would you describe your experience? Maybe I could try those out to learn more!

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#36

Post by westurner »

ceejayoz wrote: post #15
westurner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could a mini tunnel boring machine plug a well, from the side?

That's definitely a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_well

Is there a name for resealing an aquifer at each layer? Rezonal isolation, Zonal isolation, Zonal Re-isolation?

/? Zonal isolation Wikipedia: https://www.google.com/search?q=zonal+isolation+Wikipedia :

> Well cementing, Completion, Squeeze job, Cement bond log, Casing (should prevent fluid from contaminating e.g. aquifer zones)

Orphan wells: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_wells :

> they estimate there are 29 million abandoned wells internationally

Orphaned wells in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphaned_wells_in_the_United_S... :

> According to the Government Accountability Office, the 2.1 million unplugged abandoned wells in the United States could cost as much as $300 billion

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#37

Post by cyberax »

jeffbee wrote: post #17
seabrookmx wrote: post #14

> The joysticks are connected to a pilot hydraulic circuit, which proportionally moves the cylinders in the main hydraulic circuit which ultimately moves the excavator joints I've actually spent a decent amount of time running an excavator, as my Dad owns a construction / road building company. It was a great summer job! An important note about the pilot hydraulics is that they _provide feedback to the operator_. I w…

My car with its drive-by-wire brakes has a brake feedback simulator that gives the driver the kind of feeling associated with power-boosted hydraulic brakes. This is by far the most expensive single component in the car. Arguably these are just expensive accommodations for human flaws. A self-driving car wouldn't need them. Can't the self-driving system act directly on data like pressure, flow, and displacement?

There are no drive-by-wire brakes in the US or Europe for regular cars. Your car's actuator moves the piston that is mechanically linked to your pedal.

So even if the electric system fails completely, you can still actuate the brakes.

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#38

Post by roamerz »

seabrookmx wrote: post #14

> The joysticks are connected to a pilot hydraulic circuit, which proportionally moves the cylinders in the main hydraulic circuit which ultimately moves the excavator joints I've actually spent a decent amount of time running an excavator, as my Dad owns a construction / road building company. It was a great summer job! An important note about the pilot hydraulics is that they _provide feedback to the operator_. I w…

I have a 20 ton Takeuchi and I don’t recall any feedback in the controls at all. The feedback I use is from the seat and sounds of the machine - well besides of course visual of course.

I cannot imagine this being useful to me unless the virtual operators cab closely mimicked an actual machine. It would have to have audio from the machine and be on a platform that tilted relative to the real thing. It would also need 270 degrees of monitors with a virtual mirror to see behind. On the front monitor, minimally, would need the to see vertically up and down too.

I also imagine all of this would be more useful to seasoned operators who can do most things on excavators in their sleep (definitely not me lol)

Re: Launch HN: Flywheel (YC S25) – Waymo for Excavators

#40

Post by jedberg »

I have a question about competition. I had a friend who was in mining about a decade ago. He told me that their mines were fully autonomous back then -- that the equipment managed itself and sent back sensor data.

Is that different than what you are doing now?

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