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Is life a form of computation?

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Re: Is life a form of computation?

#131
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of Wolfram's "Principle of Computational Equivalence"[1]. 1. Things in nature have a maximum complexity which is like computation 2. Most things get this complicated 3. Therefore most things are "computationally equivalent" 4. "For example, the workings of the human brain or the evolution of weather systems can, in principle, compute the same things as a computer. " The leap between things being in an equi…

This principle is just applying Turing equivalence to the hypothesis that there is nothing in nature that is effectively computable but exceeds the Turing computable (which would be the "maximal level of computational power") Given we have no evidence of the existence of anything effectively computable that is not Turing computable, it's a reasonable hypothesis, with no evidence pointing towards falsifying it, nor an…

This is a poor argument, because the universe is uncomputable. We have models that apply on short time scales, but it's fundamentally not computable either in practice or in principle.

On long enough scales - and they're not that long when you're talking about billions of years - we don't even know if the solar system is stable.

Bio-computability has the same issue at smaller scales. There are islands of conceptual stability in a sea of noise, but good luck to you if you think you can compute this sequence of comments on Hacker News given the position of every atom in the original primordial soup.

The universe is not clockwork. The concept of computability is essentially mechanical, and it's essentially limited - not just by conceptual incompleteness theorems, but by the fact that any physical system of computation has physical limits which place hard bounds on precision and persistence.

Re: Is life a form of computation?

#132
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This principle is just applying Turing equivalence to the hypothesis that there is nothing in nature that is effectively computable but exceeds the Turing computable (which would be the "maximal level of computational power") Given we have no evidence of the existence of anything effectively computable that is not Turing computable, it's a reasonable hypothesis, with no evidence pointing towards falsifying it, nor an…

This is a poor argument, because the universe is uncomputable. We have models that apply on short time scales, but it's fundamentally not computable either in practice or in principle. On long enough scales - and they're not that long when you're talking about billions of years - we don't even know if the solar system is stable. Bio-computability has the same issue at smaller scales. There are islands of conceptual s…

> because the universe is uncomputable

We have no evidence to suggest that is true. If no individual process in the universe exceeds the Turing computable - and we have no evidence it does, or that anything exceeding the Turing computable can even exist - then the universe itself would be existence-proof that it is computable. Now, we can't be 100% sure, because we'd have to demonstrate that every physical interaction everywhere is individually Turing computable. But we also have nothing that even hints of evidence to the contrary.

Note that it is possible the universe is not computable from within with full precision due to e.g. lack of compressibility.

> On long enough scales - and they're not that long when you're talking about billions of years - we don't even know if the solar system is stable.

That has zero relevance to whether or not it is computable. If it is computable, then any such instability is simply an effect of a computation.

In other words you're committing the logical fallacy of begging the question - your conclusion rests on your premise, as you're trying to argue that the universe is computable by using processes as evidence that can only be uncomputable if the universe as a whole is uncomputable.

> The universe is not clockwork.

That is irrelevant to whether or not it is computable.

> but by the fact that any physical system of computation has physical limits which place hard bounds on precision and persistence.

This is also in general irrelevant to whether or not a system is computable. We can operate symbolically on entities that requires any arbitrary (including infite) precision and persistence within various constraints. E.g. we can do math with 1/3 to infinite precision for a whole lot of calculations.

Unless you can show specific processes that demonstrably happens with a precision that is impossible to simulate without the computation becoming infinite, this argument doesn't get you anywhere. Note that it would be insufficient to show a process that appears to have infinite precision in a way that would take infinite time to calculate unless there is demonstrably no way to lazily calculate it to whatever precision you actually try to observe in a finite amount of time, as such a system can be simulated.

Length of time would also not be a problem unless you can show why such a simulation needs to run at full speed to work, rather than impose a subjective time on the inside of the simulation that can vary with computational complexity.

Space complexity is also irrelevant unless you can show limits on the theoretical maximum capacity of an outside simulator.

Now to the question of whether life is computable, then if the universe is computable, then life is too, but if the universe is not, life might still be, and so this is largely a digression from the original point I made.

Re: Is life a form of computation?

#133

I love thinking about life as computation. Cells are computers, enzymes are functions, ribosomes are compilers, nucleic acids are source code... Enzymes in particular are a lot like unix pipelines. An enzyme catalyzes its substrate's conversion into its product which is the substrate of another enzyme. When cells ingest glucose, it flows through the glycolysis metabolic pathway until it becomes pyruvate, and may be r…

I think the issue with this way of thinking is that humans think in abstractions. Abstractions don't really exist, they're a product of the human mind, but then we apply them to nature. Calling DNA code, comparing NNs and the brain, etc. But those abstractions fall apart when you look a little too deeply at what actually happens in nature. Is DNA code? Or is it more like a machine? Is it neither, or is it something e…

>Abstractions don't really exist

I don't think ontology is quite that simple. They maybe don't exist in the same way as molecules and atoms do, but abstract concepts have some kind of reality to them.

Re: Is life a form of computation?

#134

I love thinking about life as computation. Cells are computers, enzymes are functions, ribosomes are compilers, nucleic acids are source code... Enzymes in particular are a lot like unix pipelines. An enzyme catalyzes its substrate's conversion into its product which is the substrate of another enzyme. When cells ingest glucose, it flows through the glycolysis metabolic pathway until it becomes pyruvate, and may be r…

You could also think about life as a "Factory" (instead of a computer) too:

  HUMAN      FACTORY       COMPUTER
  -----      -------       --------
  Cell       Factory       Computer
  Enzyme     Worker        Functions
  Ribosome   Assembler     Compiler
  Acids      Blue Print    Source Code

The difficulty with this type of analogy is so many things need these various capabilities that it's not unique to a computer, or a factory or even a human.

Re: Is life a form of computation?

#135
everything we know about the universe at the lowest scales/levels (sub-subatomic) is known to us as a computation. the universe is computation.

life is computation not because it's life, but because an inert rock in a very cold place is also computation, as is plasma within the sun.

you can model the universe as physical matter plus energy, with computations to describe what happens over time, or you could do away with the physical model and just assume it's all computation.

(as a side note, don't assume digital anywhere, and don't assume analog either, the math would take the form of what is)

Re: Is life a form of computation?

#136

everything we know about the universe at the lowest scales/levels (sub-subatomic) is known to us as a computation. the universe is computation. life is computation not because it's life, but because an inert rock in a very cold place is also computation, as is plasma within the sun. you can model the universe as physical matter plus energy, with computations to describe what happens over time, or you could do away wi…

The only way we "know" is fundamentally not a computation

Re: Is life a form of computation?

#140

everything we know about the universe at the lowest scales/levels (sub-subatomic) is known to us as a computation. the universe is computation. life is computation not because it's life, but because an inert rock in a very cold place is also computation, as is plasma within the sun. you can model the universe as physical matter plus energy, with computations to describe what happens over time, or you could do away wi…

The only way we "know" is fundamentally not a computation

not sure what you mean. the only "knowing" (that we know of) is when a piece of the universe has an incomplete model of some other portion of the universe which it uses to make predictions (and i suppose toward the same goal, remember the past) in any case, the only pieces of the universe (in turn the only universe we know) are computing all the time. atoms, subatomic particles, are not static, they are interacting all the time.
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