I’ve never found the M4 on my work machine particularly impressive. Frankly I hardly use the thing because it takes far, far too long to switch between windows compared to hyprland.
I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
451–460 of 541 posts
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#452The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…
This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on. PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.
Wouldn't that mean that Intel Macs would have a much worse battery life than they did while suspended? Even suspended they did better than the same laptop running Linux.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe it just works on MacOS, but it's prone to all kinds of breakage on Windows.
That's because MSFT doesn't really do hibernate any more but does "modern sleep" where it functions like a phone with the screen off. It keeps active network connections, downloads patches and keeps checking for notifications and other such nonsense. BIOS support for proper hibernation has been getting worse too because with MSFT demanding it, there is little reason to continue support. I've had older laptops that do…
>It keeps active network connections ...
You can disable that behavior. See: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/146593-enable-disable-ne...
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on. PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.
Wouldn't that mean that Intel Macs would have a much worse battery life than they did while suspended? Even suspended they did better than the same laptop running Linux.
Intel Macs aren't PCs... Apple did a lot of the wider platform beyond the CPU themselves.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#455Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…
>how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware?
Mac are premium hardware, and they earn higher margin. Apple use that to reinvest into their own hardware. And has been doing so for 30+ years.
Better quality PC generally dont sell as well. They have less incentive to do so. The whole PC business is also cut throat, in the old days you could have most of the margin on PC going to Intel. While others are fighting for what is left.
Recent example speakers. PC Laptop have had appalling speakers for years if not decades. It wasn't until Youtuber start pointing out some of these flaws which became competitive advantage for certain brands did PC marker start paying attention and R&D to it.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#456On a side note. I dont need expandable ports in laptops. But I wish I could get a thin and light, easily repairable laptop.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#457For me when it comes to laptop it's less about how long I can last with the battery but more about efficiency and termals - I just love that my MPB M1 is basically cool & silent for 99,9% of the time.
I was on the fence a few years back when upgrading ancient MPB 2013 and in the end went with M1 instead of "PC" laptop with Linux because of that...
I do hope that the recent surege of ARM laptops and MS finally embraicing it well will result in more machines like that available.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low. This is cope. An Apple Silicon Macbook does not need to suspend to block devices to save energy (they only do this when the battery is empty). ChromeOS doesn't offer hibernate at all. The only reason that a Framework can't have good battery life in an operating state is that nobody is paying attention to the detai…
and yet my M1 manages to drain the battery in suspend mode in just a few hours
Something's wrong. Maybe a setting or a random app is preventing your laptop from sleeping properly. You have many threads here saying that MacBooks can go weeks on sleep, and that's also my experience (M1 Pro).
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't, it's just another bootstrapping method that happens to work fine with hibernation. UKI allows you to extend your chain of trust from the bootloader to ramdisk, instead of just your bootloader and kernel. From there, you can enable kernel lockdown and checking of module signatures if you want to. I think you can do the same thing without UKI (I forget tbh), but UKI simplifies it with one UEFI executable th…
Does this mean that the hibernated image must be signed each time the laptop hibernates?
The swap file that memory is dumped to during hibernation is on an encrypted disk. Upon wake, you need to unlock the disk before you can resume from hibernation.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#460Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really do not understand why hibernate under secure boot is not implemented on Linux and this continues for years. It is as if the features are implemented by completely different people. But this is not obviously the case since systemd supports both and actively improving both. Note for me hibernation is a security measure and not about saving battery. I am traveling sometimes with the laptop and risk of theft is…
I have secure boot, hibernation, and full disk encryption working fine on linux, but I have never heard of kernel lockdown. The solution I found involves making a custom initramfs to support hibernation and compiling the kernel into a signed EFI stub.
To add some context: man kernel_lockdown[1] reads "Unencrypted hibernation/suspend to swap are disallowed as the kernel image is saved to a medium that can then be accessed.". And to my understanding there is currently no way to tell a (mainline) kernel that allows "encrypted hibernate", i.e. no way to tell the kernel that its hibernation disk is "secure".
So its not a direct "linux prevents hibernate on secure boot", its "linux recommends kernel_lockdown when secure booting", "kernel_lockdown prevents hibernate with unencrypted swap" and "theres no well to make the kernel believe the hibernation disk is encrypted", but the result is the same.
You can "just" run secure boot without lockdown. Its a cmdline, you can just omit it. You can run custom patch sets that add cmdline options so the kernel allows hibernation in lockdown (if you pinky-promise the swap is encrypted).
But neither of these are easily accessible to the average user.
1: https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/manpages/kernel_lockdow...