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Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

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Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#91

Post by mirzap »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22
barrenko wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership. And if your're someone sliding into nasty leadership / government situation you have to realize there will be a consequence to that and that the perception of the ruling party can never be separated from the perception of the people.

> point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership This works about a third of the time [1]. What does is incentivising domestic policy changes. We saw that with the nuclear deal. But then Trump blew it up because Obama did it. (On another level, sanctions degrade capability. If there is no room for peace, at least you can limit your adversary’s economy and thus martial production. If regime cha…

Sanctions don't work. Syria didn't collapse because of sanctions, but because of a very long civil war and, more importantly, a sudden imbalance in external forces (Russia was preoccupied with Ukraine). I don't think there has ever been a case where a country, or its people, changed the regime because of sanctions. Never. North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Palestine, and much of Africa are examples. Wars and revolutions change regimes. I would even argue that sanctions help regimes stay in power. When an external force imposes a threat (sanctions) on people, those people don't see the outside as "saviours" but as an enemy. They often resent the country that imposed the sanctions more than their own government, and they have no desire to fight an external enemy on behalf of a domestic dictator.

Sanctions punish ordinary people, many of whom are already suffering under the regime. So they end up opposing both an internal and an external enemy. In the long run, sanctions probably destroy and cost far more lives than wars. It's a sadistic way to try to crush an enemy.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#92

Post by cornholio »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #35
barrenko wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership. And if your're someone sliding into nasty leadership / government situation you have to realize there will be a consequence to that and that the perception of the ruling party can never be separated from the perception of the people.

> The point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership. That's the theory, but has it ever worked? That something that never works (not even in cases where it has been going on for multiple generations, as in the case of Cuba or Iran) keeps being tried makes it impossible to believe that the intention is making it "work" in the sense you mean. The sanctions are just to sink those countries for p…

>> The point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership.

>That's the theory, but has it ever worked?

The point is not to (directly) instigate regime change, but to influence the actions of the existing regime, as well as other state actors not under sanctions, by demonstrating to them how bad it can get. Make an example and so on.

The suffering of the civilians is not the goal of sanctions but a consequence of the choices their - legitimate or not - leaders make, and which ultimately impacts their ability to engage in foreign trade. No country has an obligation to trade with any other, so if civilians suffer after foreign trade is limited, the agency and moral responsibility is with the regime that failed to secure friendly trade relations. Often, humanitarian exceptions are carved out to limit this.

It definitely "works", in the sense that it's often the only tool available, along with positive reinforcements such as aid and support and the threat of stopping them, which is just another flavor of the same. It's hard to have a benchmark for something that "works" better, since countries are sovereign and by definition have disputes and don't blindly follow any established rules or rulers.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#93

Post by [deleted] »

Devasta wrote: post #67
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership. That's the theory, but has it ever worked? That something that never works (not even in cases where it has been going on for multiple generations, as in the case of Cuba or Iran) keeps being tried makes it impossible to believe that the intention is making it "work" in the sense you mean. The sanctions are just to sink those countries for p…

If anything I'd say it has the opposite of the intended effect sometimes. Like, during WW2 the UK was being bombed and ration books and supply shortages were the order of the day. They look back on their endurance of the conditions inflicted upon them as a source of national pride, have to imagine that is the case for many in the sanctioned countries too.

[deleted]

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#94

Post by theshrike79 »

elzbardico wrote: post #74

Sanctions don't work. Period. The only thing they can do is to make dictators more popular and provide them with an excuse for their economic and political failures. When someone in Cuba is denied something because of Sanctions, they are not going to blame the Castro family, they are going to think, "Hey, Fidel was always right! those Americans are just a bunch of sadist psychopaths that are trying to destroy my coun…

Ironically McCain was the last republican who actually worked with the other side. The current US regime is hard-line party people with zero ability to compromise.

But what you're saying is that sanctions are more of a marketing issue when it comes to who is blamed?

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#95

Post by t1E9mE7JTRjf »

barrenko wrote: post #6
OccamsMirror wrote: post #2

It must be really frustrating be on the receiving end of sanctions. The ugly truth about sanctions is that they punish the people more than the aristocracy. But they're still better than wars.

The point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership. And if your're someone sliding into nasty leadership / government situation you have to realize there will be a consequence to that and that the perception of the ruling party can never be separated from the perception of the people.

I suspect a reason for sanctions is that it allows the government applying them to look like they're doing something to their voters. It's an effective way of scoring points without spending any resources. They know they're ineffective, but they also know the general public doesn't know that. For instance the EU very publicly applying sanctions against Russia while with less fanfare continuing to give them billions for gas.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#96

Post by JumpCrisscross »

jeroenhd wrote: post #87
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians Objectively untrue. Many of the Russian sanctions, for example, targeted Putin’s inner circle.

They may not be normal civilians, but many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials, which does make them civilians. In other cases sanctions are targeted at government officials personally rather than the parts of government they influence, like targeting their side business, their stock, or their personal property. There are sanctions targeting governments specifically, but usually gove…

> many of Putin's friends targeted by sanctions are not government officials, which does make them civilians

By that definition Putin is a civilian.

More broadly: plenty of sanctions explicitly target military-only kit. Those are not “designed to hurt civilians,” though I guess a civilian working in a munitions factory might lose their job.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#97

Post by yawpitch »

adastra22 wrote: post #58
notjosh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your comment is helpful context, especially as a foreigner. but would you be able to edit the "pounding in the ass" phrase out in future when referring to prison? thank you <3

Your comment is understandable as a foreigner! Look up our federal prison system sometime. The description is apt. You either kill someone, or become someone's bitch on the first day, then you'll be alright. (It's an Office Space reference, btw, but our prisons are genuinely inhumane and not rehabilitative.)

Your reply to that comment is understandable as an American… in that you got your understanding of your own prison system from your own popular media.

Also in the assumption that a foreigner would or could get an Office Space reference, unless they live in a country America has already successfully culturally colonized.

The point is that the homophobic trope doesn’t add anything to the information given, while it does make it more likely to run afoul of homophobic censors in homophobic countries led by homophobes.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#98

Post by adastra22 »

theshrike79 wrote: post #83
adastra22 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is understandable as a foreigner! Look up our federal prison system sometime. The description is apt. You either kill someone, or become someone's bitch on the first day, then you'll be alright. (It's an Office Space reference, btw, but our prisons are genuinely inhumane and not rehabilitative.)

American prisoners are, if you look at it objectively, slaves. They are forced to work for for-profit companies for minimal pay, which is deducted by their living expenses and basic amenities.

They are literal slaves. The 13th amendment of the constitution:

> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, *except as a punishment for crime* whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Slavery is still legal in the United States of America.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#99

Post by sorushn »

kennywinker wrote: post #55
sorushn wrote: post #32

> I am NOT asking for the removal of the sanctions targeted at the Islamic Republic of Iran. All sanctions are designed to hurt civilians, so that they may overthrow their government. Just a bullying tactic by the US with zero moral justifications, despite how it's framed by the media.

So, we should just do business as usual with countries committing war crimes or genocide? Aggressors in war, users of chemical weapons on their own people? I’m aware there are consequences to sanctions, and the way they are implemented is often half-assed or hypocritical (e.g. the way that russian oil still flows) but to drop all sanctions… Is that not like saying boycotts hurt employees who had nothing to do with th…

> So, we should just do business as usual with countries committing war crimes or genocide? Aggressors in war, users of chemical weapons on their own people?

That's what the US has been doing since forever, even actively participating in the war crimes. If you think any of the stated reasons for the sanctions are real, I have a bridge to sell you.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#100

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mirzap wrote: post #91
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> point is to get people in those contries to overthrow their leadership This works about a third of the time [1]. What does is incentivising domestic policy changes. We saw that with the nuclear deal. But then Trump blew it up because Obama did it. (On another level, sanctions degrade capability. If there is no room for peace, at least you can limit your adversary’s economy and thus martial production. If regime cha…

Sanctions don't work. Syria didn't collapse because of sanctions, but because of a very long civil war and, more importantly, a sudden imbalance in external forces (Russia was preoccupied with Ukraine). I don't think there has ever been a case where a country, or its people, changed the regime because of sanctions. Never. North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Palestine, and much of Africa are examples. Wars and revolutions change…

You’re refuting a fairly robust study with vibes.

> Syria didn't collapse because of sanctions

Nobody said it did.

> don't think there has ever been a case where a country, or its people, changed the regime because of sanctions. Never

Literally a source with a page number, and, in a neighbouring comment, a table with the specifics.

Like, if you had a button that could convert the world’s hot wars into mutual embargoes, would you not push it? Up the stakes: mutual embargo plus embargoed by their leading trade partner.

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