> Native Persian speakers establish the human ceiling. Native speakers achieved an average accuracy of 81.8% on taarof-expected scenarios, demonstrating high but not perfect agreement. This establishes an appropriate ceiling for model performance and further validates our annotation approach I'm surprised human benchmark is that low. The canonical example of taarof, one I've seen elsewhere, is of a taxi driver insist…
We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
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Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
My take on “Hard on purpose” is that it’s plausible deniability. It’s not for showing off, it’s to make the situation polite in a way that you can’t rationally attribute malice.
More generally, perhaps, leaving an out for either party to avoid losing face in the case one side wants to contest a statement or pull back from a stance. Norwegian culture is big on compromise - we see that even in politics, where it's not uncommon for a party that often has 12-15 parties represented to negotiate settelements that gets the support of 10+ parties even if only half of them are needed for a majority,…
In the US, we've kinda swung back on the prisoner's dilemma. GOP finally figured out that they don't need to worry about bipartisanship or even having the consensus of their entire party. Turns out, if you've got the all three branches of government under control, you can just do whatever you'd like.
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds terrible. But in all fairness, it's not like pretending isn't part of everyday Western culture too.
It's an interesting topic. We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. But, I'd argue that our quirk is that we constantly tell people to just be themselves, to be their "true selves," to be "true to themselves," etc. We say it incessantly and loudly. And then, in reality, it's often not what people actually want, and that sort of behavior is often punished. Again, I think we're quite different from th…
Of course we do. Just try to have a political debate in your work place (no, please don't) and you'd find out.
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you’re talking about now. Currently. But this concept is old. The quote from the guy who invented the concept of the “aryan master race”, de Gobineau, was from 1859. That’s just 7 years after the irish potato “famine”, when the english perpetrated a genocide against catholics in ireland. Very tolerant. Meanwhile, in 1859 in the ottoman empire - jews and christians were allowed to exist and believe what they wanted…
Iran/Persia was not part of the Ottoman Empire. They maintained a border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars I agree that the Ottomans had more religious freedom- and certainly diversity. At least until the Enlightenment, which the Ottomans missed to their undoing.
But it doesn’t really change my point, because as far as i know persia and then iran was pretty religiously tolerant up until ‘79.
> I agree that the Ottomans had more religious freedom- and certainly diversity. At least until the Enlightenment, which the Ottomans missed to their undoing.
The “enlightenment” ended 60-ish years before england did a genocide in ireland. So it seems like being “enlightened” wasn’t enough to actually create a society tolerant of religious diversity.
I’m also not sure that “missing” the enlightenment was actually the undoing of the ottoman empire. That doesn’t track with what I know of the fall of the ottomans, but i won’t argue this point since i don’t have a full understanding of all the factors that lead to undoing of the ottoman empire.
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds terrible. But in all fairness, it's not like pretending isn't part of everyday Western culture too.
It's an interesting topic. We don't have anything near as extreme in Western culture. But, I'd argue that our quirk is that we constantly tell people to just be themselves, to be their "true selves," to be "true to themselves," etc. We say it incessantly and loudly. And then, in reality, it's often not what people actually want, and that sort of behavior is often punished. Again, I think we're quite different from th…
I'd argue that yes, you do.
>I'd argue that our quirk is that we constantly tell people to just be themselves
And this is the means by which you do that.
>in reality, it's often not what people actually want
That is true. Tbf I can't really imagine what could be accomplished by normalizing a blatant untruth about something as essential as the principles of who one should be and how their motivations should work; other than to signal "for the love of all that is holy don't examine the underpinnings of this too closely or all the common ground that the cultural edifice supposedly provides will begin to fall apart at the seams rather quickly"
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Iran/Persia was not part of the Ottoman Empire. They maintained a border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars I agree that the Ottomans had more religious freedom- and certainly diversity. At least until the Enlightenment, which the Ottomans missed to their undoing.
Ah, true. I was looking at a map of the ottoman empire and its eastern border looked to me like it bisected where i remembered present day iran to be. But i see that they only overlapped a little around the edges and less and less as time went on. But it doesn’t really change my point, because as far as i know persia and then iran was pretty religiously tolerant up until ‘79. > I agree that the Ottomans had more reli…
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#77It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…
That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#78The entire of the Middle East operates on a principle of magnanimous hospitality. The Arabs call this karam, for example, which is considered to even be a religious obligation.
So if you're a stranger passing through a town and chat with some locals, you can expect for someone to invite you for tea and maybe even dinner!
Do you take them up on the offer?
Most people in the West would ask themselves "do I have the time", but a middle easterner would think "do they have the time?" Remember, you as a guest are also magnanimously hospitable--in this case, the least possible burden. Unfortunately, the guest must navigate whether they are being considerate or insulting by refusing hospitality.
Now to address taarof specifically. Persian's have pathologized hosptiality to the point of psychosis. The behavior is often mechanically choreographed (e.g. you should refuse at least twice before accepting a cucumber.) In other cases, it's insane.
Story time:
My mom and aunt had not seen each other for 3 years and met for lunch at a cafe. They went back and forth over who would pay at the register until it erupted into a fight. They sat at separate tables for lunch.
A close family friend--with no provocation from my sister--offered to house her for a weekend she was visiting. My sister accepted. That friend later complained to my mother.
A friend of mine went to a mechanic who offered to fix a small issue for free. My friend knowing better paid him anyway, but the mechanic was still upset since he didn't pay enough!
Edit: Just to address some of the comments. Abroad, the degree of hospitality is warped for foreigners (for what I hope are obvious reasons). Middle easterners in the West are far more inclusive.
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds terrible. But in all fairness, it's not like pretending isn't part of everyday Western culture too.
the traditional persian conception is perhaps a more honest evaluation in the sense of ketman, cognitive dissonance is conscious and almost an indulgence. thus, a kind of internal dialectic forms, which is in its own way a deeper personal truth. the practicioner therefore sees every other persons hypocrisy, self-dishonesty, and their true self, and is not perhaps upset or disturbed by their external lies and internal…
What's kinda fucked up though is that the guy whose name you wear might not have been describing a "traditional persian conception" but a cognitive artifact produced by his own arrogance.
You explain the underlying concept rather better than the tale you originally quoted, and I dare presume it is easier for one to be understood about such things when they are not explicitly sourcing their soundbites from authors liable to be judged as ethically compromised.
Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof
#80As a Persian, I feel compelled explain. The entire of the Middle East operates on a principle of magnanimous hospitality. The Arabs call this karam, for example, which is considered to even be a religious obligation. So if you're a stranger passing through a town and chat with some locals, you can expect for someone to invite you for tea and maybe even dinner! Do you take them up on the offer? Most people in the West…