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We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

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61–70 of 129 posts

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the obvious reverence for the father of the "Aryan master race" concept (Seriously, just pull up this guys Wikipedia -- first paragraph). Such a critique of Persian culture without any context is unjust. For nearly a whole millennia, the Persians have endured a never ending parade of invasion, destruction, and conquest. While most are aware of the notable events, i.e. - Rashidun Caliphate (636) - Mongol…

From Wikipedia: > He came to speak a "kitchen Persian" that allowed him to talk to Persians somewhat. (He was never fluent in Persian as he said he was.) Despite having some love for the Persians, Gobineau was shocked they lacked his racial prejudices and were willing to accept blacks as equals. He criticized Persian society for being too "democratic". Gobineau saw Persia as a land without a future destined to be con…

Bigots really do say the damndest things.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#62
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an aside, there are elements of this sort of thing in Bay Area tech culture too. The more general case of misaligned strength of a statement is widespread in other cultures as well. E.g. I'm Norwegian, and it's not unusuals for Norwegians to use similarly soft language, though it's by no means universal. A statement like "perhaps it would be worth thinking about doing X?" will often mean "do X" or "do X right no…

Okay, here’s what I’m wondering: How do you urge people to do discoveries or try things out when you’re reviewing something? e.g. Do you think it would be better if we used a queue system here? Oh, no, I can try it but I had issues with blah blah etc.

Why is it hard to directly ask them to try something? Is it because you subconsciously realize you're actually just piling extra work on top of them for variable benefit?

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#63

I didn't know what this referred to but reading some of the examples in the paper.. oh man I hate this thing with a passion. It's not just Persians but Arabs in the gulf culture too that apply this to every scenario, it's the definition of being insincere as I know they don't really mean it but pretend to. An example from last month, I had a haircut at a new place and the guy refused to tell me how much I should pay…

This shit gets pulled anywhere in east asia with a "face" culture (i.e. China).

I've watched two Chinese grandmas play a game that my born in china friend explained to me: 1 offered the other money but you "lose face" to accept it, so the 2nd one was repeatedly declining. This went on for a solid 3-4 minutes before the 2nd one left.

I 1000% agree. Get this shit away from LLM training datasets and I'll even go further. Sometimes west-is-best in culture, and avoiding "face" culture is one of those situations where I'm down to be a "cultural objectivist". Similarly, we westerners are objectively nasty with our toilet habits compared to east asians.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia: > He came to speak a "kitchen Persian" that allowed him to talk to Persians somewhat. (He was never fluent in Persian as he said he was.) Despite having some love for the Persians, Gobineau was shocked they lacked his racial prejudices and were willing to accept blacks as equals. He criticized Persian society for being too "democratic". Gobineau saw Persia as a land without a future destined to be con…

I think he was so caught up in his own bullshit that he couldn't see clearly. To him "Iran", which literally means "of the Aryans", had been reduced (or, in his thinking, reduced itself) to a sad mockery of its former glory. It's all hooey, of course. But he was nothing if not resolute in his delusion.

Delusion is the right word, I would encourage people to read the whole Wikipedia. Despite his complete lack of academic training or ability (he failed the entrance exam to a military academy), he published several anthropological/archaeological books about Persia which were universally torn apart by actual experts. Two of them were focused on translating ancient cuneiform, but again, he didn't speak Persian, and "he failed to understand linguistic change and that Old Persian was not the same language as modern Persian."

Some of the cuneiform he "translated" was not even Persian, and he also used ancient mythical poetry as a factual historical source, claiming that ancient Aryans had conquered a race of giants. It's too much to quote here but it's all pretty funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau#Criticism_o....

Sidenote unrelated to Persia: He was so racist that when American racists translated his work (looking for justification to subjugate black people), they had to take out his rants about how impure American white people were.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#65

> Native Persian speakers establish the human ceiling. Native speakers achieved an average accuracy of 81.8% on taarof-expected scenarios, demonstrating high but not perfect agreement. This establishes an appropriate ceiling for model performance and further validates our annotation approach I'm surprised human benchmark is that low. The canonical example of taarof, one I've seen elsewhere, is of a taxi driver insist…

I suspect that a lot of this form of cultural subtlety is designed to be hard on purpose. This allows individuals to show off and spar on a fairly harmless linguistic level - "he is so suave, she conveys her meaning just so" etc. Effectively it is a way to show off verbal + emotional intelligence in a way that doesn't look like showing off, since it's all about politeness. The fact that it makes it hard for foreigner…

If that's true, than the theories that "Autism is the next form of human evolution" seem far more true.

Shit tests are demonic and should be rooted out from the human psyche.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#66

Taroof reminds me of "askers vs. guessers," which was a revelation to learn about at the time. I'm very firmly in the asker group, and dealing with guessers is painful for me. Taroof sounds like "guessers on steroids"...

Is anyone strictly one or the other? That seems like a huge spectrum and dependent on context.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#67
> We focus on Persian taarof, a social norm in Iranian interactions, which is a sophisticated system of ritual politeness that emphasizes deference, modesty, and indirectness

As an Asker, this sounds like an absolute nightmare for me.

(https://www.theatlantic.com/national/2010/05/askers-vs-guess...)

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#68
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Iran, and the rest of the Middle East. The West scores much higher in religious freedom. The difference is plain to see going from one to the other.

So you’re talking about now. Currently. But this concept is old. The quote from the guy who invented the concept of the “aryan master race”, de Gobineau, was from 1859. That’s just 7 years after the irish potato “famine”, when the english perpetrated a genocide against catholics in ireland. Very tolerant. Meanwhile, in 1859 in the ottoman empire - jews and christians were allowed to exist and believe what they wanted…

Iran/Persia was not part of the Ottoman Empire. They maintained a border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Zuhab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars

I agree that the Ottomans had more religious freedom- and certainly diversity. At least until the Enlightenment, which the Ottomans missed to their undoing.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#69
post #66

Taroof reminds me of "askers vs. guessers," which was a revelation to learn about at the time. I'm very firmly in the asker group, and dealing with guessers is painful for me. Taroof sounds like "guessers on steroids"...

Is anyone strictly one or the other? That seems like a huge spectrum and dependent on context.

It's a spectrum, of course, but like most spectrums, people usually find themselves much closer to one end or the other.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the obvious reverence for the father of the "Aryan master race" concept (Seriously, just pull up this guys Wikipedia -- first paragraph). Such a critique of Persian culture without any context is unjust. For nearly a whole millennia, the Persians have endured a never ending parade of invasion, destruction, and conquest. While most are aware of the notable events, i.e. - Rashidun Caliphate (636) - Mongol…

From Wikipedia: > He came to speak a "kitchen Persian" that allowed him to talk to Persians somewhat. (He was never fluent in Persian as he said he was.) Despite having some love for the Persians, Gobineau was shocked they lacked his racial prejudices and were willing to accept blacks as equals. He criticized Persian society for being too "democratic". Gobineau saw Persia as a land without a future destined to be con…

That's pretty standard model for those times - when dealing with "inferior" peoples, its pretty much either "noble savage" or "inscrutable deceitful liar". The latter is especially convenient - if the observer does not understand something, it's not because their command of the local language and customs sucks and you can't actually understand a complex culture by just showing up there with zero knowledge - it's because the locals are taking pleasure in deceiving people.

Of course every culture has lying, some social customs necessitate it to some measure, and politeness, strictly speaking, always has a deceitful component - I am usually not really that invested in knowing how are you, and don't care that much about you having the best of luck in all your future endeavors - I am just saying that because that's a polite way to express that I don't hate you and neither you should hate me. And I may not actually be extremely busy this weekend but that's a polite way to say I don't want to go to the pokemon museum with you.

In a familiar culture, that's understood as how things work and is not taken at face value, but in context. Unfamiliar politeness could be taken by hostile (or arrogant) observer as deceit. Which is of course reinforced by being an outsider to the culture - would you really immediately tell everything about yourself and your intimate thoughts to a total stranger that looks weird and barely speaks your language? Or would you mutter some polite non-committal platitudes while he is scribbling away something like "never allowing oneself to appear as one is, but in always showing oneself otherwise; it is the art of presenting to each person the aspect that will please him most, of adopting his ideas, his tastes, his language, while inwardly remaining quite different". Fuck yes, I don't know you, and you are a guest, of course I'd not immediately go into dissecting the fine details on my soul and vigorously debating hot topics of the day with you.

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