My Thinkpad P15 battery was also great after two weeks vacation, with Windows 11 Professional, and Intel CPU.
I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
51–60 of 541 posts
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know Windows laptops are very finicky and unreliable. For example, loads of people complain that $3000 Razer laptops break after a few months. I guess I'm mostly talking about Apple overall. You're paying a lot more money for self-repairability. Frameworks are generally more expensive than Macs, sometimes 50% - 100% more expensive for a similar laptop. That's crazy. Macs are tanks. Not a single issue with my 4 year…
> Frameworks are generally more expensive than Macs, sometimes 50% - 100% more expensive for a similar laptop. Do you have an example? An 8tb m4 macbook pro runs over 7 grand; the comparable hx370 framework 13 is barely over 3 grand. I bought both within the last couple months and found the macs to be significantly more expensive in the segment i was looking at.
You can buy an M4 Air for $799 on sale frequently.[0] Meanwhile, a similar spec'ed Framework with a slower AMD CPU/GPU is $1,517.00.[1] So the repairability angle just doesn't seem worth it. If the Air breaks, just buy a new one.
Keep in mind that the M4 Air has a better display, significantly faster CPU, faster GPU, significantly more battery life, is fanless, better speakers, much better trackpad, and a thinner profile.
[0]https://www.macrumors.com/2025/08/27/200-off-every-m4-macboo...
[1]https://frame.work/products/laptop13-diy-amd-ai300/configura...
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#53As suggested in the blog post, the battery life issue is complex. You do need a CPU/SoC that’s efficient, and while Intel and AMD can do this it’s traditionally been a struggle for them. Next, the OS needs to be capable of taking full advantage of the chip’s efficiency. Windows could be decent here in, but Microsoft doesn’t believe in an operating system that’s ever truly idle (and neither do the third parties living…
Excellent point with Steam Deck. The machine is proof that x86 and Linux can do it and simply don’t.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#54The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…
My personal machine is a Framework 13 AMD (first gen of AMD for them) and my work machine is a MB Pro M4. The Mac Book just keeps battery _forever_ while suspended, where as I've found the Framework (running Ubuntu 24) loses about 1% an hour while suspended. 1% per hour is acceptable for me, but the Mac Book's power to performance ration is just insane.
I can't blame Framework, of course. Upstart laptop manufacturer that is open about repair vs tech giant who's spent years optimizing hardware and batteries.
All that said, I'm optimistic for better batteries, better suspend software/hardware support, and more efficient mobile processors outside of the Apple ecosystem in the coming years. The M-series Apple processors are definitely kicking others in the industry into gear.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#55The ISA has nothing to do with the battery life. Battery life is the result of getting details right at every level of the software stack. Framework doesn't control every level of the stack. Arguably they don't control any of it.
> Battery life is the result of getting details right at every level of the software stack
Exactly. Apple's way of doing things is about vertical integration of the stack, which is the polar opposite of how the PC market developed and largely still works.
The vertical integration approach (where you control all the layers beneath the customer facing product) has the benefit of allowing you to optimize that customer experience by tweaking things anywhere in the stack.
Power management in digital systems mostly comes down to being able to slow or turn off clocks when appropriate. Doing this well can be complicated, but you can tell that Apple has put a lot of energy into doing it.
The downside of the vertical integration approach is that components cannot be sourced or replaced with off-the-shelf components, as the interfaces are not really standard, they are tailor made for the use case.
For the Framework folks to pull off something like the M1's power sipping, they'd have to invest a lot of engineering time (a.k.a. money) and have strategic partnerships with hardware vendors and standards bodies to move the commodity chip market forward to support better power management.
The thing is, one of the strengths of the Framework is that the hardware is commodity, making their devices easy to repair. Also, any work that the Framework folks do to move things forward also benefit their competitors, which can shrink the potential reward for doing so.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
For me it's the repairable nature. Prior to the Framework 13 I had a bunch of Thinkpads until the enshittification by Lenovo in recent years.
How often have you needed to repair a MacBook? The enhanced repairability is basically insurance in case of a fault. Compared to a MacBook, or insurance for a MacBook, this insurance is overpriced. As for the environment, the power consumption + larger design with extra parts to make it repairable + how few people ever buy parts makes this a virtue signaling wash.
In the 15 years I've known her, my wife has needed to repair each of her 3 MacBooks at least once (One of them twice).
In the same time, I've had to repair one Gigabyte laptop. The second Gigabyte that needed repair, I trashed and just stopped buying Gigabyte.
That's the problem with Apple. They're build quality isn't that great, but you don't have an alternative.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#57[deleted]
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#58The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…
The thing is - a lot if power saving is achieved by hybrid sleep (computer hibernating after a timeout).
Setting that up is pure hell on Linux, with poor documentation and security people actively fighting against making this easy.
On Windows/macOS it just works, on Linux you'll probably break secure boot with it.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#59As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.
Desktop Macs do have fans so they're not completely silent, but if you were under the impression there aren't any then that reflects well on how good their tuning is. AFAIK the MacBook Air is the only passively cooled Mac.
I know that they have fans but I really can't hear them. Maaaybe when gaming but I would to have to really concentrate on that. And I am super sensitive to noise.
It is so sad that apparently no one else bothers to tune their fans properly. It is such a killer feature for me.
Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework
#60What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental? If so, I seriously doubt that the lifetime pollution of a Framework laptop is better than an Apple Silicon Mac. Macbooks tend to last a very long time. I used my Intel Macbook Air for 10 years. After that, I sold it and maybe it continued to get used by the second owner. While you can keep upgrading Framework laptops (parts require shipping/pollution to ma…
> What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental? The fact that I can repair it, exchange every part, get every part, upgrade every part, and I never have to use a hairdryer or heat gun to do so.
Are you willing to pay 2x the price for a Framework and get a worse overall experience in exchange for repairability?
Keep in mind that the Framework spare parts are generally also pretty expensive.