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We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

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41–50 of 129 posts

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#41

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…

This sounds remarkably similar to the (western) Catholic theological concept of "mental reservation" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_reservation ).

Not really:

> Mental reservation, however, is regarded as unjustifiable without grave reason for withholding the truth.

That sounds significantly different from a "perpetual exercise of disguise" that is considered "a virtue, a duty, and a necessity".

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that a lot of this form of cultural subtlety is designed to be hard on purpose. This allows individuals to show off and spar on a fairly harmless linguistic level - "he is so suave, she conveys her meaning just so" etc. Effectively it is a way to show off verbal + emotional intelligence in a way that doesn't look like showing off, since it's all about politeness. The fact that it makes it hard for foreigner…

My take on “Hard on purpose” is that it’s plausible deniability. It’s not for showing off, it’s to make the situation polite in a way that you can’t rationally attribute malice.

More generally, perhaps, leaving an out for either party to avoid losing face in the case one side wants to contest a statement or pull back from a stance.

Norwegian culture is big on compromise - we see that even in politics, where it's not uncommon for a party that often has 12-15 parties represented to negotiate settelements that gets the support of 10+ parties even if only half of them are needed for a majority, for example, because it's often seen as preferable to pushing through a bigger change with narrower support.

And compromises feel like they are easier to reach when positions are couched in "maybe"'s that leaves plenty of rooms to adjust or pull back without losing face.

In a sense that of course is plausible deniability for the harder position, but not because they necessarily object to people thinking that is what you want, but ensure not to give the impression you're unconditionally committed to it.

I don't know if this is always good - sometimes it is, but it also does mean that it's easy for things to end up being endlessly debated in cases where people latch on to language that leaves the door open for "polite disagreement" more than it perhaps ought to.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#43

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…

Setting aside the obvious reverence for the father of the "Aryan master race" concept (Seriously, just pull up this guys Wikipedia -- first paragraph).

Such a critique of Persian culture without any context is unjust. For nearly a whole millennia, the Persians have endured a never ending parade of invasion, destruction, and conquest. While most are aware of the notable events, i.e. - Rashidun Caliphate (636) - Mongols (1219) - Timurids (1370)

What is less known is the centuries of endemic violence in the border regions, and the relentless assault on the Persian way of life and culture itself (including the centuries long conversion process to Islam). Yes, although there are brief periods of peace, e.g. under the Safavids, at this point Iran is settling in for a long period of population collapse, famine, and economic depression.

In such a setting, I suppose it might make sense for a culture to develop such defense mechanisms for survival.

On the bright side I suppose, these conditions also gives rise to one of the most influential literary and poetic traditions in world history -- i.e. Rumi, Hafez, Ferdowsi, etc. In some ways, this is one of the first instances of art as a form of subversive resistance, and also, indeed a cousin of tarof...

While the Persians may have given it a name, let's not pretend they have the monopoly on deception/self-deception.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#44

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…

That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#45
Given current severe issues in user interactions with systems I don't think this is desirable at the moments. In linguistics, the descriptive study of this sort of system is "Politeness Theory" where for and "Positive Politeness" is what would be the applicable English version. Although English, being so heterogeneous, lacks a consistent, dominant word for its less ritualized norms.

Given this, the request here sounds similar to asking saying:

"We focus on English Positive Politeness that encourages friendliness, harmony, and avoiding confrontation and contradiction in many polite conversation settings. It often manifests in interactions that prioritize the desires and comfort of others."

And yet, this has had unanticipated and sometimes horrific results.

The study also focuses merely on descriptive output of models but what is lacking in this study is an analysis of the effectiveness of the results that Persian users receiive, their subject perception of the quality of the results. The authors of this may be doing a diservice to typical speakers of their language to assume that they will not systematically be able to code switch their expectations of received language and production of their own just as effectively as they do already in other contexts, especially when current problems with LLMs arise from a similar for of this skeuomorphism in more prevalent English systems.

To be clear, I fully mean this as applied to current production systems, not for all time. For the moment, we simply don't know precisely 1) how best to most effectively, precisely, and consistently align systems, nor 2) The more subtle implications for for the impact they have on users. But what we do know? Getting it wrong, not knowing, has led to some horrific outcomes.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#46

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…

Setting aside the obvious reverence for the father of the "Aryan master race" concept (Seriously, just pull up this guys Wikipedia -- first paragraph). Such a critique of Persian culture without any context is unjust. For nearly a whole millennia, the Persians have endured a never ending parade of invasion, destruction, and conquest. While most are aware of the notable events, i.e. - Rashidun Caliphate (636) - Mongol…

From Wikipedia:

> He came to speak a "kitchen Persian" that allowed him to talk to Persians somewhat. (He was never fluent in Persian as he said he was.) Despite having some love for the Persians, Gobineau was shocked they lacked his racial prejudices and were willing to accept blacks as equals. He criticized Persian society for being too "democratic". Gobineau saw Persia as a land without a future destined to be conquered by the West sooner or later. For him this was a tragedy for the West. He believed Western men would all too easily be seduced by the beautiful Persian women causing more miscegenation to further "corrupt" the West. However, he was obsessed with ancient Persia, seeing in Achaemenid Persia a great and glorious Aryan civilization, now sadly gone. This was to preoccupy him for the rest of his life.

The guy was a terrible person and a documented liar about his knowledge of Persia. Perhaps he had some conversations with locals who genuinely didn't understand why he hated black people, and he thought "ah, these clever Persians, so effortlessly deceiving me when they obviously must be as racist as I am".

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#47

> Native Persian speakers establish the human ceiling. Native speakers achieved an average accuracy of 81.8% on taarof-expected scenarios, demonstrating high but not perfect agreement. This establishes an appropriate ceiling for model performance and further validates our annotation approach I'm surprised human benchmark is that low. The canonical example of taarof, one I've seen elsewhere, is of a taxi driver insist…

> Something that drives me nuts is someone writing on a code review "you may want to consider using the X data struct here" and meaning "I will not merge this code until you use X"

The former language is appropriate when there is a specific problem to be solved and X seems to be a good solution. This language doesn't rule out other approaches that also solve the problem. (It should probably be accompanied by a good description of the problem.)

Saying the latter would be fairly rude since it implies that you think an ultimatum was required to get compliance. I'd instead phrase it as "X data struct should be used here." It is still clear about the correct way of doing things and carries less baggage.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#48
post #44

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…

That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.

Where, and when, are you talking about?

All over the christian west religious freedom has come and gone. The same can be said for the islamic world.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#49
post #44

It may be quite dangerous if we train LLMs on Taarof and Ketman... especially considering... what may arise. The masterful art of deception, surpassed perhaps only by the russianes Arthur de Gobineau, Trois ans en Asie (3 years in asia) 1859: “There is in Persia a word of which Europeans have no idea, and of which it is difficult even to give them a translation: this word is ketmân. It means the dissimulation of one’…

That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.

This reads as "Islam is bad and the West is good" but besides the obvious xenophobia its just ahistorical.

Re: We Politely Insist: Your LLM Must Learn the Persian Art of Taarof

#50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens when you don't have religious freedom.

Where, and when, are you talking about? All over the christian west religious freedom has come and gone. The same can be said for the islamic world.

In Iran, and the rest of the Middle East. The West scores much higher in religious freedom. The difference is plain to see going from one to the other.
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