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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

31–40 of 541 posts

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#31
As suggested in the blog post, the battery life issue is complex.

You do need a CPU/SoC that’s efficient, and while Intel and AMD can do this it’s traditionally been a struggle for them.

Next, the OS needs to be capable of taking full advantage of the chip’s efficiency. Windows could be decent here in, but Microsoft doesn’t believe in an operating system that’s ever truly idle (and neither do the third parties living in your taskbar tray), so even on relatively efficient laptops much of that potential is wasted. Linux is kind of all over the place, depending on your hardware, which governor you’re using, how it’s configured, whether your browsers are configured to use GPU acceleration or are burning power intensive CPU cycles, etc.

Then there’s sleep. Most of the problems here come down to x86 laptops not implementing proper S3 sleep but only “modern standby”, which attempts to emulate the sleep mode that Apple uses that allows for emails to be fetched etc while in a near-sleep low-power state. The problem is that modern standby is not implemented well in Windows or Linux and how individual laptop firmwares handle it can vary a great deal, and the sum of it is that it generally speaking doesn’t work, which is why so many x86 laptops drain themselves after being “asleep” for a couple of days. My ThinkPad does this too.

It’s possible for x86 machines to manage this state correctly, as proven by Valve’s Steam Deck which can be put to sleep and drain its battery slowly enough to stay alive for a week or more. This seems to require a level of integration between the hardware and the OS (an Arch based Linux in this case) than practically all laptop vendors are either willing or capable of.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#32

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I…

Are you a gnome user?

Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. Or well anything else, you are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. There is the perfect one for everyone. At least if you use X11, wayland is still a turd.

I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. You need a metric ton of third-party extensions for simple stuff like proper alt-tab support or custom shortcuts. An configuration is supper limited.

And it will get so much worse with the whole glasses ui thing.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#33
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's the repairable nature. Prior to the Framework 13 I had a bunch of Thinkpads until the enshittification by Lenovo in recent years.

I know Windows laptops are very finicky and unreliable. For example, loads of people complain that $3000 Razer laptops break after a few months. I guess I'm mostly talking about Apple overall. You're paying a lot more money for self-repairability. Frameworks are generally more expensive than Macs, sometimes 50% - 100% more expensive for a similar laptop. That's crazy. Macs are tanks. Not a single issue with my 4 year…

> Frameworks are generally more expensive than Macs, sometimes 50% - 100% more expensive for a similar laptop.

Do you have an example? An 8tb m4 macbook pro runs over 7 grand; the comparable hx370 framework 13 is barely over 3 grand. I bought both within the last couple months and found the macs to be significantly more expensive in the segment i was looking at.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#34
The Arm architecture isn't why Apple Silicon is so good at this. Apple's silicon engineers have been very good at designing a system of power states that is extremely efficient, and have tight coupling with the OS. Linux on a framework laptop gives you none of this co-design.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#35

What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental? If so, I seriously doubt that the lifetime pollution of a Framework laptop is better than an Apple Silicon Mac. Macbooks tend to last a very long time. I used my Intel Macbook Air for 10 years. After that, I sold it and maybe it continued to get used by the second owner. While you can keep upgrading Framework laptops (parts require shipping/pollution to ma…

"Specs" really do not mean a lot for Laptops. Most laptops are seriously bad quality, and I have not had one laptop in the past 10 years that did not require a major repair before the warranty period expired. With most laptops, you are buying e-waste. I can't afford buying e-waste. I would rather buy a laptop I can keep for 5 years without having to scrap it, and with framework I could just replace whatever breaks.

And for me Mac is not an option as I'm not using their crappy OS and I don't want to have the forever struggle of running Linux on their proprietary hardware platform.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#36
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often have you needed to repair a MacBook? The enhanced repairability is basically insurance in case of a fault. Compared to a MacBook, or insurance for a MacBook, this insurance is overpriced. As for the environment, the power consumption + larger design with extra parts to make it repairable + how few people ever buy parts makes this a virtue signaling wash.

Funnily enough, I had to get my M1 Pro repaired on day 1 of receiving. It had a defect in the screen that caused a white horizontal line. I was livid!

I am sure that the Apple Store just handed you another one to replace a DOA Macbook, though.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#37

> Apple Silicon is built upon ARM64 which is apparently core to such great battery life. Not really, actually. ARM isn’t terribly more efficient to decode than x86, and both are converted into micro-operations that are internal to the CPU. The real strength is Apple’s custom ARM cores; as evidenced by the failure of Qualcomm and MediaTek to make anything quite like it, even with the same manufacturing nodes.

Qualcomm is getting there with the Snapdragon X Elite.

It's still significantly slower than the M4 but you can at least meaningfully compare them nowadays which is a strong come back from where they were when the M1 was introduced.

We are likely to see improvements now that Microsoft buys Arm chips for their Surface laptops. I guess it was hard to justify the investment before.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#38
post #16
post #2

Author here. I'm posting this before bed. If there are any suggestions or questions I will answer in the morning.

FWIW, I use Arch Linux with XFCE on my Intel Framework 13 and I only lose a few percent battery per day in sleep mode. I suspect you could find some software settings to make this better, maybe worth digging a bit further.

What sleep modes does that support? The 7840HS only supported the "modern standby" mentioned in another comment.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#40

What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental? If so, I seriously doubt that the lifetime pollution of a Framework laptop is better than an Apple Silicon Mac. Macbooks tend to last a very long time. I used my Intel Macbook Air for 10 years. After that, I sold it and maybe it continued to get used by the second owner. While you can keep upgrading Framework laptops (parts require shipping/pollution to ma…

> What mission do you love from Framework? Is it environmental?

The fact that I can repair it, exchange every part, get every part, upgrade every part, and I never have to use a hairdryer or heat gun to do so.

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